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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to ask you to STOP using these unhelpful phrases?

317 replies

StopCallingMeTeresa · 07/08/2019 18:28

i apologise if this turns into an essay, but...

"Supply equals demand"
or
(worse) "low milk supply is actually quite rare so probably not your problem"

I've just read yet another MN thread where someone said the 2nd one (basically suggesting that a poster with suspected low milk supply probably wasn't in the "tiny tiny" %age of women who don't produce enough milk). It fucks me right off to keep reading this nonsense on here and other breastfeeding support groups/forums because it makes women feel like their actions or perception of low milk supply are the cause... rather than a genuine medical issue which might never be fixed. If a man had erectile dysfunction caused by a non-mental health issue, would we tell him that the problem wasn't a real problem if only he'd try the right thing, mentally?

Personally, this is (obviously) an upsetting issue. I'm 2 months PP and have low milk supply; as in, I produce about 5ml per 1hr pumping session, and I can get about 30ml on an entire day's worth of hours and hours of being hooked up to a pump inbetween breastfeeds.

My baby was delivered and within 48hrs lost so much weight he was admitted into NICU for monitoring. He was shrieking with hunger when he wasn't latched on, whcih was hours and hours of every day - i got about 3hrs of sleep in the first three days of his life, after which i was pretty much told he was in such a risky position we HAD to start supplementing with formula. My baby was literally starving.

  • I'm on domperidone to increase milk supply (dr is talking about stopping it now as it has had no affect).
  • I've spent every day of his life on a double hospital grade pump.
  • Oatmeal breakfasts, flapjacks to inrease milk. I feel sick thinking about oats these days i'm so sick of them.
  • I've taken fistfuls and handfuls of supplements every day: goat's rue to develop milk ducts, fenugreek, brewer's yeast, you name it, for 2 solid months.
  • I've tackled slow let down by doing extreme skin to skin kangaroo style care the last few weeks; I listen to relaxing music whilst feeding and pumping, smelling my baby and looking at him/pictures of him.
His latch has been checked. No tongue tie.
  • I've done about 4 feeding "resets" where I sat in bed and did nothing but skin to skin and feed for 3 days straight while my boyfriend and mum ran around doing everything else.
  • i've had other stuff like bottle feed technique checked at my local LLL group, as well as the health visitor.
  • GP has checked my thyroid and prolactin levels twice now - all normal.
  • We've done a weighted feed at the local support group but i'm simply not producing anywhere near normal levels of breastmilk.

There's NOTHING i can do now to ever exclusively breastfeed as intended. i simply don't produce enough milk for some reason.

... and yet i keep reading on here especially that "low milk supply is rare" (no scientific source or attributation, of course!) and "supply=demand", just like all the other lies i was told at the antenatal group about breastfeeing.

can i ask you to consider the impact on women like me the next time you are writing something like that?

by washing over what is a genuinely distressing problem as if it weren't a real problem, it doesn't contribute towards good maternal mental health and suggests it can be fixed.

sometimes, it can't.

and now i'm trying to accept that it's ok. but then i read BF support threads on here with misleading / ambiguous phrases like that and i struggle.

OP posts:
Toomuchtrouble4me · 09/08/2019 13:37

Today 10:43 BertrandRussell

@Toomuchtrouble4me do you feel you got all the help and support you needed

No, I didn’t get help. I did go to GP who said get a nipple shield and carry on - it’s only when I bought a breast pump as the pain was too much that I found a leaflet about bright pink nipples and severe shooting pains being thrush of nipples.
I’d been to GP but got told to use cream and a nipple shield. No mention of thrush.

BibbleBrain · 09/08/2019 13:52

I think you are amazing to do all of that and you should try to let these comments wash over you. You literally couldn’t have done more.

I sympathise. I exclusively fed one at the expense of my mental health as he fed every ninety minutes til at least six months. I stupidly started feeding a second having had thus experience and despite having fewer problems at the beginning he’s now in the same place and a bottle refuser to boot.

I hate it and I wish I’d never started. I apparently don’t store much milk on one side. The response I’ve had from the experts I’ve literally spent hundreds on is you have no mechanical problems and mums of twins manage. My HV told me to just get to six months and it’ll be fine - spoiler: it’s not and it’s making me depressed.

I agree with PPs that the message of breast is best has been taken to such an extreme that it destroys lives and mental health.

toomuchtooold · 09/08/2019 14:12

If they'd made the advice as nuanced as that fermatstheorem I might have listened more!

corythatwas · 09/08/2019 15:01

YYY to what Fermats said about "design". My babies were ones that nature had not designed to survive labour, let alone grow up, certainly not to walk. Try telling my dd (chronic pain since age 2, spent much of her teens in a wheelchair, even the slightest infection can make her lose her balance and develop fainting fits) that her body was "designed" to perform normal functions and she will hit you over the head with her crutch.

I had to wait 10 years after dd's birth to find out why her body wasn't performing (after repeated misdiagnosis by paediatricians) so blaming my (enormously helpful and supportive) midwives and lactation consultant seems a little harsh.

I still remember sitting in the little room at the residential clinic my 10yo had been admitted to and being asked "did she have difficulty feeding" and bursting into tears with relief because finally I had an answer.

Any information to struggling mothers should involve the caveat "there are also cases where we cannot tell the reason for difficulties; the best we can suggest is that you try x, y and z, but we cannot guarantee success".

Hmmmbop · 09/08/2019 15:07

WeatherSchmeather give me an evening and I'll have a look at what, if any research has been done on lactation insufficiency and report back on the stats!

RidingMyBike · 09/08/2019 15:45

Its interesting in some research that does exist that it's 'perceived' low milk supply when talking about supplementing with formula. But 'milk insufficiency' with no 'perceived' about it when talking about donor milk.
journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0890334419850820

RidingMyBike · 09/08/2019 15:53

Research showing Biomarker found for perceived low milk supply, indicating it could well actually be real low milk supply...
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022347616311775

RidingMyBike · 09/08/2019 16:01

Risk factors for delayed onset of milk www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17539887/?i=2&from=/20573792/

GoodbyeRosie · 09/08/2019 16:09

Just. Feed. Your . Baby!

You've given enough time and effort to breast feeding. Big respect for everything you've done. Unfortunately , for many random reasons, it just doesn't work out for some mums.

Get on those bottles, and your partner can properly do their bit as well now instead of feeling a bit helpless whilst you struggle.

I'm a big ' fed is best' person..another horrible phrase to some.

gill1960 · 09/08/2019 16:10

I'm so sorry darling that you are being abused by the breast police.
Its really common not to have enough milk and it runs in my family too.
Bloody breast police haven't got enough charity and kindness to be helpful and understand anything medical .
Tell them to fuck off and enjoy your baby with a wonderful bottle.

BertrandRussell · 09/08/2019 18:04

“I'm so sorry darling that you are being abused by the breast police.”

Blimey. Which thread are you reading?

autumnnightsaredrawingin · 09/08/2019 18:14

YANBU. My first child was very nearly admitted to hospital as I’d battled on exclusively BF her for 3 weeks when I was not making anywhere near enough milk. It was absolutely awful. She was mixed fed until 12 weeks then bottle fed. Second was bottle fed formula from day 1. I actually think it’s a much bigger percentage than 1%. And I think (as it nearly was in my case) it is dangerous to continuously peddle ‘your supply is perfect for your baby’ message, because sometimes, it’s really not.

BertrandRussell · 09/08/2019 18:24

“My first child was very nearly admitted to hospital as I’d battled on exclusively BF her for 3 weeks when I was not making anywhere near enough milk.“
See- this is all part of the patchy nature of post natal care for women and babies. What should have happened is that the baby’s failure to gain weight should have triggered proper support and help- either to move to mixed feeding or to fix whatever was going wrong if it was fixable. You shouldn’t have got to 3 weeks and a near hospital admission without getting help.

corythatwas · 09/08/2019 19:04

Bertrand, I had to wait 10 years before someone with the proper qualifications came along to tell me why my dd had been unable to breastfeed: this is pretty average for the condition. Even then, her paediatricians were saying the condition shouldn't be causing her as many difficulties as it was. Kudos to her paediatrician who rang me up late one evening to tell me she had been to a conference and realised we were not exaggerating.

I had MASSES of breastfeeding support for dd, but because nobody knew what the problem was, all it did was make me feel even more guilty when she still failed to gain weight. I felt when I got all this wonderful support, I owed it to dd and the consultants to make it work. I exhausted myself pumping and syringe feeding and pumping again because I just wasn't prepared for the idea that there can be conditions that are not readily diagnosable and don't offer you a clear get-out card but which simply make life unendurably hard and where you might actually be wise to save your strength for the big battles. With hindsight and in perspective, breastfeeding wasn't one of them for us.

AquarianSquirrel · 09/08/2019 22:20

The breast police..oh my. Conjuring up some wild images!! Just changed that comment to bottle (wherever it says 'breast') and it makes for interesting and in no way judgemental reading..

ethelfleda · 09/08/2019 22:58

Just changed that comment to bottle (wherever it says 'breast') and it makes for interesting and in no way judgemental reading

I was going to post something like this. I posted further up mentioning the double standards on this, and every other breastfeeding thread I read on MN.

Howlovely · 10/08/2019 09:36

"I am not obsessed with how anyone feeds their baby. I do think that looking at the health of the nation that an increase in breastfeeding would be beneficial."
@Kitty would you mind clarifying this ridiculous point you've just made please?
Because it appears as though you are blaming women who couldn't, or didn't want to, breastfeed for poor health in adults? Surely you're not suggesting that breastmilk is magical and there would be no ill health if only women stopped lying and persevered with breastfeeding, and that formula is poison and makes a nation of people chronically unhealthy? Who knew that the key to a super-nation of people all just relies on mother's breastfeeding their babies.
Some of your comments are ridiculous. It is absolutely none of your business how women feed their babies or indeed what they say to justify it to themselves or other judgy, smug people with a weird over-imvestment in breastfeeding. It is also hideous of you to suggest that mums are at fault for any ill health on a national level because they get their babies formula.

ethelfleda · 10/08/2019 10:23

Howlovely
I think you need to calm down. You’ve completely twisted what kitty said and quite frankly, are being a little dramatic.
It’s commonly accepted that an increase in breastfeeding across a population would increase certain positive health outcomes. That’s why people always talk about the benefits being on a population level, rather than on an individual level. And further more, she also didn’t blame individual women for low bf rates either!
This is just absolutely typical of MN - someone having a completely valid opinion on breastfeeding, that has its basis in fact, gets attacked for it. While if anyone ever says anything even remotely negative about formula, there is a witch hunt. Double standards.

For the record, I don’t care how women CHOOSE to feed their babies - but choice is the important word here... if a woman CHOOSES to breastfeed then she should be supported to do so. When the sad fact is, she so often won’t be.

BertrandRussell · 10/08/2019 10:28

“Surely you're not suggesting that breastmilk is magical and there would be no ill health if only women stopped lying and persevered with breastfeeding, and that formula is poison and makes a nation of people chronically unhealthy? ”
No. Because that would be a deeply stupid thing to say.

However, it is an accusation often thrown in to conversations about feeding in order to shut down any further discussions- which it does, very effectively. If I was of a paranoid disposition, I would suspect shilling by the manufacturers of formula. But i’m not. So I don’t.

oblada · 10/08/2019 10:37

Indeed, it is about choice. It is pretty evident looking at UK stats that if women were given proper support a lot more would choose to breastfeed. UK women are no different to others and yet our breastfeeding rates are abysmal. Hence the conclusion that many women are not genuinely choosing not to breastfeed. And why it is so important that proper support be available.
And that is simply to respect the choices made by women, without even considering any benefits.

KittyMcKitty · 10/08/2019 10:37

Howlovely seriously did you read my post?

Yes I believe that if we increased bf-ing rates it would have a positive effect on the health of the nation. That I do believe. I have not made any of the wild accusations you have accused me of. If you had actually read my posts you will know that I have formula fed one child- something I have no guilt or hang ups about - why should I it was the right thing to do with that child at that time.

I am not going to respond to the quite frankly ridiculous accusations you’ve made as I did not say or imply those things.

PlutocratCow · 10/08/2019 14:41

@RidingMyBike thank you for posting the research links. Interesting that women are accused of "perceived" low milk supply in a lot of the research. But I still can't find that 1-2% being based on any actual study.

Also I don't understand how the government would get that info either. At a health Visitor check there's a question about how the baby is fed (exclusive bf, mixed or formula) but I don't ever recall it being noted why for data gathering purposes?

PlutocratCow · 10/08/2019 14:47

Interesting, the Australian study says "Risk factors for delayed lactation were being primiparous (adjusted OR 3.16, 95% CI 1.58-6.33) and having delivered by caesarean section (adjusted OR 2.40, 95% CI 1.28-4.51). We failed to find a negative association with maternal body mass index reported in previous studies. While a greater proportion of women who experienced delayed lactation were overweight or obese compared with those who did not experience delayed lactation (40.8% vs. 32.1%), this difference was not statistically significant."

SinkGirl · 10/08/2019 14:53

YANBU

Took medically complex DT2 to consultant the other day and was talking to the clinic nurse about a symptom which is worrying me. Some children with condition A develop condition B, which this is a symptom of.

She said oh no, that’s very unusual?

Yeah, well he was born with a condition that affects 0.001% of babies so excuse me if that means fuck all to me!

Rare things happen to someone!

ErrolTheDragon · 10/08/2019 15:34

Interesting that women are accused of "perceived" low milk supply in a lot of the research

I'm not sure that the term would be meant in any way as an 'accusation'. More that the low supply is inferred rather than directly measured.

I couldn't see this form of words in the link that mentioned it anyway.Confused maybe I'm missing something.