to ask you to STOP using these unhelpful phrases?

[StopCallingMeTeresa]

i apologise if this turns into an essay, but...

"Supply equals demand"
or
(worse) "low milk supply is actually quite rare so probably not your problem"

I've just read yet another MN thread where someone said the 2nd one (basically suggesting that a poster with suspected low milk supply probably wasn't in the "tiny tiny" %age of women who don't produce enough milk). It fucks me right off to keep reading this nonsense on here and other breastfeeding support groups/forums because it makes women feel like their actions or perception of low milk supply are the cause... rather than a genuine medical issue which might never be fixed. If a man had erectile dysfunction caused by a non-mental health issue, would we tell him that the problem wasn't a real problem if only he'd try the right thing, mentally?

Personally, this is (obviously) an upsetting issue. I'm 2 months PP and have low milk supply; as in, I produce about 5ml per 1hr pumping session, and I can get about 30ml on an entire day's worth of hours and hours of being hooked up to a pump inbetween breastfeeds.

My baby was delivered and within 48hrs lost so much weight he was admitted into NICU for monitoring. He was shrieking with hunger when he wasn't latched on, whcih was hours and hours of every day - i got about 3hrs of sleep in the first three days of his life, after which i was pretty much told he was in such a risky position we HAD to start supplementing with formula. My baby was literally starving.

• I'm on domperidone to increase milk supply (dr is talking about stopping it now as it has had no affect).
• I've spent every day of his life on a double hospital grade pump.
• Oatmeal breakfasts, flapjacks to inrease milk. I feel sick thinking about oats these days i'm so sick of them.
• I've taken fistfuls and handfuls of supplements every day: goat's rue to develop milk ducts, fenugreek, brewer's yeast, you name it, for 2 solid months.
• I've tackled slow let down by doing extreme skin to skin kangaroo style care the last few weeks; I listen to relaxing music whilst feeding and pumping, smelling my baby and looking at him/pictures of him.

His latch has been checked. No tongue tie.

• I've done about 4 feeding "resets" where I sat in bed and did nothing but skin to skin and feed for 3 days straight while my boyfriend and mum ran around doing everything else.
• i've had other stuff like bottle feed technique checked at my local LLL group, as well as the health visitor.
• GP has checked my thyroid and prolactin levels twice now - all normal.
• We've done a weighted feed at the local support group but i'm simply not producing anywhere near normal levels of breastmilk.

There's NOTHING i can do now to ever exclusively breastfeed as intended. i simply don't produce enough milk for some reason.

... and yet i keep reading on here especially that "low milk supply is rare" (no scientific source or attributation, of course!) and "supply=demand", just like all the other lies i was told at the antenatal group about breastfeeing.

can i ask you to consider the impact on women like me the next time you are writing something like that?

by washing over what is a genuinely distressing problem as if it weren't a real problem, it doesn't contribute towards good maternal mental health and suggests it can be fixed.

sometimes, it can't.

and now i'm trying to accept that it's ok. but then i read BF support threads on here with misleading / ambiguous phrases like that and i struggle.

“And how, Bertrand, do you tell the difference between those of us "lying" about not enough milk and those of us telling the truth? Pray tell.”
What I do know is that what’s happening now is not working. It is crap that some women feel they have to lie because they feel that saying “I don’t want to bf” is not acceptable. It’s crap that some women who have low supply push themselves to exhaustion and worse trying. It is crap that some women who have perfectly adequate supply don’t get the help they need to fix the process of transferring milk from breast to baby.

What I do know is that we should be working towards a situation where the vast majority of women make a genuine, unforced, informed decisions about how to feed their babies. And if we get there your question becomes redundant. Because a woman who doesn’t want to bf just won’t. Simple as that.

'Mad' isn't exactly a helpful word either.

More accurate by far would be 'misguided' - in the sense of external guidance being inappropriate.

@FermatsTheorem. Precisely.

There are so many posters carrying on about “The reality is most/95%/99% women can breastfeed...” Yet despite me requesting several times for someone to produce the studies that prove this no one has. NO ONE.

Some of these posters are like a bloody dog with a bone with their sweeping statements, yet it never occurs to them to do some actual research before they make their claims. And I don’t mean basing your stance on some non-expert’s comment piece. Actual scientific research.

It’s the same with calling people liars without knowing. Firstly, why not give people the benefit of the doubt in the first place? What proof have you got about people lying?

But the biggest issue here, and it underlies all of this, is why does anyone care what any other woman is doing with her boobs? Why on earth, are people who post here so obsessed with how women feed their babies?

Can someone answer me that?

From my own experience what is lacking is proper support for new mothers. The support I was given in hospital with both my children was, quite frankly atrocious. People who have never breastfed telling you what to do and all of them saying something different. I successfully fed my 2nd child in the end because I paid for good support and was bloody minded enough to preserve through many challenging weeks. Not everyone can do this.

I agree with pp that saying “I was lucky...” isn’t helpful as it implies the default will be failure. We need to lose the emotive language surrounding breastfeeding.

Why on earth, are people who post here so obsessed with how women feed their babies?

I am not obsessed with how anyone feeds their baby. I do think that looking at the health of the nation that an increase in breastfeeding would be beneficial. To give context I also feel an increase in physical activity and a reduction in portion size and sugar consumption would also help the health of the nation.

WeatherSchmeaher (love the user name) the other question I'd like to see answered is the one we'd routinely ask in earth sciences: "What proportion of the variance does this explain?"

E.g. exclusive BF purportedly raises IQ. But is that a second order effect compared to, say, maternal education, income, general household nutrition levels, child-rearing choices like getting your child into bed early enough?

BF makes asthma less likely. But how important a factor is it compared to genetics, propensity to use huge numbers of cleaning products round the home, air quality, proximity of home to a main road, etc. etc. In other words, should I as a mother give vast amounts of headspace and beat myself up over failure to BF, or would I be better of simply buying a hoover with a HEPA filter and knocking the scented candles on the head?

It's this sort of practical situation and real-life decision making we need to be much better informed about.

“Why on earth, are people who post here so obsessed with how women feed their babies?“

Because so many women do not end up feeding their babies the way they want to. And I want them to. Simple as that.

@FermatsTheorem I don’t care about any of that. I want women to be able to make a clear, informed unpressured decision. I don’t care what thar decision is - so long as in the vast majority of cases it is what the woman wants.

But how can you make an informed decision without information? That makes no sense to me.

The whole premise this argument is based on is the claim that breast is objectively best. Otherwise we're simply arguing over a matter of aesthetics, like whether this season's frills are the best thing ever or an abomination, or whether the Smiths were overrated.

@BertrandRussell Still unclear about why you would be so invested in the babies of those women you claim are “liars”. You don’t think calling women liars and making other such comments about their way of life puts pressure on them? And in terms of clarity and being informed, again I ask... where is your research?

I suspect your investment in the conversation is more about wanting to preserve the need to be smug. How’s that working out for you?

I couldn't feed my two the way I wanted to (BF). I had all the support in the world, I was doing it right, and yet it wasn't to be. It had a huge effect on me and spoiled the first few weeks of bonding TBH.

Except for all the threads on MN about it I don't even give it a second thought now they are 20 and 17, it's not on my radar at all.

It’s interesting to read this, no milk here and so couldn’t breastfeed, tried for 2-3 days with great support all round. Then we got really good support and advice on moving to formula 100% at 1 week old.

Where is all this negativity coming from? We never saw any of it.

“@BertrandRussell Still unclear about why you would be so invested in the babies of those women you claim are “liars”. You don’t think calling women liars and making other such comments about their way of life puts pressure on them? ”
I’m not invested in the babies at all. I am invested in the women. And I am not claiming that women are liars. I am saying that some women feel forced to lie because they feel that not wanting to is not a good enough reason for not bf. When it is. What “other such comments” have I made?

“The whole premise this argument is based on is the claim that breast is objectively best”

Not for me it isn’t. The argument for me is about women being able to do what they want to do.

@FermatsTheorem when I was pregnant I read this article in the Royal Statistical Society magazine. It doesn't have the sort of in-depth comparisons of risk that you would like (that in itself irritates the shit out of me - why is there no money for bigger epidemiological studies of this stuff given the huge effect it has on the lives of mothers? How many tens of studies have there been on the safety of processed meat - we get it, we'll lay off the bacon, can you all study something useful now?) but it does go through what evidence there is for the effects of breastfeeding. I'm a stato and FWIW I trust what she's saying, I think it's well researched.

It's the premise of the argument of the people the OP is complaining about, Bertrand.

toomuchtooold thanks, that is a very interesting read. Love "'breast is best' is a catchier slogan than 'breast is probably a bit better'."

@BertrandRussell “So women who say they didn’t have enough milk are lying. Lovely” Yep. Some of them are.

And yet you’re not calling women liars...

@WestherShmeather - this is what I said “And I am not claiming that women are liars. I am saying that some women feel forced to lie because they feel that not wanting to is not a good enough reason for not bf. When it is. What “other such comments” have I made?”

@BertrandRussell Right, so if I understand correctly you are saying “some of them [women] are” liars. But you’re “not claiming women are liars”. But also “some women feel forced to lie”.

Gotcha.

@WeatherSchmeather- you actually understand perfectly well what I am saying. Some women lie (that is not a “claim”- it is a fact) because they feel they have no choice. Because they feel that “I don’t want to” is not a good enough reason for not bf. Which is shit.

we should be working towards a situation where the vast majority of women make a genuine, unforced, informed decisions about how to feed their babies. And if we get there your question becomes redundant. Because a woman who doesn’t want to bf just won’t. Simple as that.

This with bells on it.

Women should be provided with accurate, non-judgmental, non-emotive information regarding the benefits and negatives of breast and formula feeding and be allowed to use this information to make informed decisions about how they feed their babies.

They should be allowed to then voice this decision without judgment or having to make excuses. There will be women who have to feed a different way to their preference for a variety of reasons who should have access to support should they wish.

The breast/ formula debate isn't as emotive in other countries (and I don't mean 3rd world countries) and milk sharing and wet nursing is also much more common in other Western countries.

Oh, and what “other comments” have I made?

WeatherSchmeather of course some women lie. I know some that lie and say they didn't have enough milk when they just didn't want to breastfeed. I know they were lying because they have told me they lie. And they told me they lie because it's not socially acceptable to say you didn't want to. And that is WRONG!

The whole premise this argument is based on is the claim that breast is objectively best

Forget this argument for the minute. Let’s say that breastmilk and formula were completely even, health wise. A woman should still be able to feed whichever way she wants, because it is her choice. And she should be supported as such.

I don’t know for definite how much of a difference breastfeeding makes. I do know that I believe In it though... I knew I wanted to breastfeed. Luckily, I was able to and did get the support I needed. I would love it if all women could get access to the support they needed to carry on - if carrying on was appropriate for them and their baby of course.