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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to end a friendship over this

129 replies

ILovesPeanuts · 07/08/2019 15:29

Really not sure what to do here. I've name changed as details could be outing.
I've been best friends with Lisa (not her real name) for 30 years. There was a period of around 10 years when we didn't see each other, but stayed in email contact, as she moved a long distance away but she is back now, and over the last two years my DH and I have seen Lisa and her DH Gary regularly. All fine and dandy, and I get on very well with Lisa, and our DHs have really hit it off.
The issue is Lisa and Gary's son, Damien (not his real name). He is 12. My children are DS10 and DD13. Every time we see them Damien goes out of his way to ruin the occasion. He is rude, obnoxious, unpleasant and difficult. He is not diagnosed with anything, nor has this ever been considered to my knowledge, and all that Lisa and Gary do is make excuses. I would be completely understanding and tolerant if the behaviour was due to a special need, but as far as I can tell he is fine at school and the bad behaviour is a choice. Some examples:

  • We all had tickets to an event that we were walking to. Due to Damien keep running off in the opposite direction, hiding up alleyways, sitting down and refusing to move, we all missed it.
  • We went to a theme park. Each time we'd queued up for a ride, Damien would change his mind at the last minute and refuse to get on. As we all got off, he'd announce he was going to do it now and stand at the back of up to a 90 minute queue and refuse to move.
  • Day out at National Trust. Damien disappeared right at the start and we all spent the next hour plus in really high temperatures looking for him, only to find him over a mile from where we'd last seen him, playing on his mobile phone (which he hadn't answered).
  • Round to our house for a BBQ. I'd specifically bought foods he likes to avoid issues. He arrives and refuses to talk to anyone. Immediately he said to Lisa stood next to me, "there's nothing to do here, it's boring. Take me home. I want to go home." Lisa twittered that he was rude and rolled her eyes as if to say, what can you do. He then refused to eat a single thing. He repeatedly asked to go home. He refused to join in a game that my DC had that they were keen to play. Fair enough. But the next day Lisa tells me she has bought it for him (£150!!) as he liked it so much.
  • The last time we saw him he hurt my DS with a martial art move, and refused to release DS from a lock despite my DS begging. DD intervened and told us (we were in another room).
Lisa does not deal with this at all. She'll make excuses, such as he's tired, was in the middle of an on-line game and annoyed that he had to come out, that he's self conscious, that he's always like this (!!) and so on. Gary does a bit better, but makes wild threats like Damien and he'll go and sit in the car, or Damien won't have his iPad or phone rest of the week, Damien can't have friends round, but none of it is ever carried through as far as I know. I've asked Lisa if it's just us, and she just laughs and says no, he's always like this and reels off other 'amusing' examples. She says it's hard because he loves being on his computer and they have problems if they try to get him to go out anywhere. No kidding. I know IWBU to tell them how to parent. If he was mine, I would take away iPads, phones, etc and stick to it, for ever increasing periods. I would not watch him be rude to people's faces, and let him ruin all activities, and make excuses, without consequences. But he's not mine. The easy answer is to walk away, but I genuinely like Lisa and Gary in every way other than this. Obviously I can't trust Damien with my DS alone, and must keep an eye on that. To be fair, the rest of the time, Damien and my DC play fine, and they do like him, but probably for at least a third to a half of any visit he is being rude and obnoxious. Lisa will not take kindly to any conversation I fear and is quite defensive by nature. Both Lisa & Gary are highly educated and informed - she is a teacher and Gary is a deputy Head! I feel if there was a diagnosis to be had, they'd be onto it, but Lisa says that Damien is doing great at school, which leads me to think the behaviour is a choice which they are not dealing with. We have two holidays provisionally arranged with them next year. Damien's behaviour is getting worse, and every time we are with them I am finding I enjoy it less and less, and it's becoming a treading on eggshells ordeal. I could challenge Damien when he is rude to me, and ask if he realises how rude he is, but even that I think would probably be too much for Lisa & Gary. Any ideas as to how to improve this situation gratefully received. Or is it, as I am starting to think, impossible to get past? As we live a good hour apart seeing Lisa on her own is not easy, and she expects Damien to always be included. She works school hours and has Damien the rest of the time. We tend to have friends with children similar ages these days which suits us (usually). I think I know the answer but would love to hear if anyone has managed to survive a situation like this with friendship intact?
OP posts:
TatianaLarina · 07/08/2019 16:48

I’d imagine Gary and Lisa are fairly used to friends declining holidays with them.

Limiting the friendship to adult time is fair enough, I don’t think OP will necessarily lose their friendship.

I can’t really cope with one sister’s feral children, but we still hang out.

katewhinesalot · 07/08/2019 16:48

Perfect text from "teentimestwo"

katewhinesalot · 07/08/2019 16:48

Also Damien Grin

WhatTheWatersShowedMe · 07/08/2019 16:51

It sounds like your mates have been crap at setting boundaries for their son. I wouldn't be going on holiday with them- there are ways of doing this without explicitly saying it's because their son is horrible if you don't want to give her the unvarnished truth.

eg "We've been giving next year's holiday a think and it would be better for us to just have a family holiday in than do a group holiday in ."

ChicCroissant · 07/08/2019 16:53

It is a definite no to the holidays from me, quote the missed event as the reason - this is your holiday, no need for your own children to miss out as they have done before because of Damien's behaviour.

Like you did at the rides, continue to ensure that your own children get to do the fun stuff and Gary and Lisa deal with Damien.

It may well be the end of the friendship tbh - don't make any excuses but just tell them that you no longer want them to come on holiday with you. If they press for a reason, then you can say that you don't want to see your children miss out because of his behaviour/get hurt again.

Would she meet up with you OP (just yourself and Lisa) and your DH's could meet up seperately too? No children involved? But you must let her know ASAP that the holiday option is off - the sooner you do it, the better.

Iggly · 07/08/2019 16:54

Fuck any holidays.

And as for him running off - his parents deal with it. End of story.

And with any behaviour issues in your house - tell him off! I would.

Drum2018 · 07/08/2019 17:01

Organise a meal out somewhere between both towns so both couples only travel a half hour - make it late evening so kids are not invited. Or you and Lisa meet up while dad's stay home, and vice versa. I just wouldn't be organising any meet ups with the kids. If they ask just put them off and suggest adult meet ups instead. Say your kids are on a summer camp, have soccer training/drama class whatever. And yes, don't go on holidays. I'd just say it's unlikely to work out given the kids don't seem to gel together.

SkaterGrrrrl · 07/08/2019 17:08

We have friends we love dearly but their kids are undisciplined free spirits with zero boundaries. We did one camping trip with them and their son pulled a burning stick out the fire and tried to poke DD in the head with it. They said nothing.

We only meet up with the parents now.

nancyclancy123 · 07/08/2019 17:08

I would struggle to remain friends with this couple if I was you. They have no respect for you and your family and they need to wake up and work out what they are going to do with their son and his behaviour/needs.

SavingSpaces2019 · 07/08/2019 17:13

I feel ridiculous, but we felt they were in a locality they didn't know at all, and we did, and Lisa was visibly worried as Damien had no clue where he was and on that occasion no phone
You're not responsible for their safety and wellbeing though, they choose to allow situations like this to happen by refusing to parent and discipline.
They're just dragging you into their dramas and ruining yours and dc time.

They're teachers - i'm sure they can handle some very blunt home truths.
They may not like it but that's tough - they have the audacity to sick this crap onto everyone else so they can take some direct honesty.
Personally, i'd say "Damiens behaviour is atrocious and it's gone unchecked for too long. We don't want him in our home/around our dc until his behavior has been addressed and improved".

1stmonkey · 07/08/2019 17:17

Understand you're saying his parents wouldn't appreciate it but i would suggest you're perfectly within your rights to tell a 12 year old off for being rude to you. Doesn't have to be over the top but an "i don't allow anyone to speak to me that way, certainly not children. If you can't be polite you'll have to find someone else to speak to." Even if his parents don't like it i think they'll be hard pressed to find something to criticise in that.
Also think it's important for your own children to see you're not prepared to tolerate that kind of behaviour.
Difficult one for you OP, good luck!

Bearbehind · 07/08/2019 17:18

If you wish to maintain the friendship then don't tell them you're cancelling due to their son. That is something that will break a friendship irreparably.

Just say there is work commitments, or financial constraints, or something with the kids, anything, but just pull out and make some excuse up that won't make it irreversible.

I definitely disagree with this.

Making up excuses will just cause more problems, for example if you say you can’t afford it then you can’t do something else.

It is possible to politely say that recent incidents with Damien have made it apparent that a holiday will be difficult so you’re just going to do your own thing.

ILovesPeanuts · 07/08/2019 17:19

Thank you everyone.
Cheeseandwin5 I haven't changed my tune. I just worded it badly and meant to be clear that when I said when we got off the ride I meant after we'd all been on.
I do accept we've been overly accommodating. The behaviour is steadily getting worse and the most recent time involved the martial arts move, hence the first concern about my DC's safety.
100% backing off and the holiday won't happen. I don't want to lose the friendship but if they react badly to the holiday thing then I'm prepared for that.

OP posts:
GreenwoodLane · 07/08/2019 17:21

Hmm, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some additional needs here. Our son has recently been diagnosed with hfa and my husband doesn’t want to make this known within our social circle. Our son has a similar need for control, especially in group situations such as this where there are other people’s wants & feelings to consider.

Or he could be a bugger with no boundaries.

However, if I’d have been you at the theme park, there’s no way I’d have missed the ride. At 12, he’s old enough to wait it out if he doesn’t want to go on.

cushioncovers · 07/08/2019 17:23

Yep definitely don't go on holiday with them. And just keep your friendship to meeting for a coffee just you and Lisa. It's her kid it shouldn't be your problem.

BrienneofTarthILoveYou · 07/08/2019 17:24

I completely agree with @mumwon - sounds like piss poor parenting to me, rather than any additional needs. I have a friend like this but I stopped seeing her with the kids as her youngest is vile but his problem is he's 8 and spends half the night on PS4 (literally - he's on it after 1am on a school night as he goes on after his parents have gone to bed). He also has anxiety and temper issues and she's desperately trying to get a diagnosis for him, but if she followed through on punishments and removed the PS4 from his bedroom, I think she'd be on her way to getting him back on track. I did try to kindly say something along those lines to her, but she didn't want to hear it, so I left it. But I don't put myself or my DSs in his company anymore as his behaviour is awful!

ILovesPeanuts · 07/08/2019 17:30

You see I'd make allowances if there were additional needs. But if it's down to poor parenting it's much harder to stomach. There definitely appears to be poor parenting but the question is whether that's the whole cause or part of it or a symptom of a child they can't seem to handle.

OP posts:
TheGreysAreComing · 07/08/2019 17:31

I feel there's an additional need but I am thinking the parents are possibly resisting any labelling of it so just singing la la la to all the behaviour.

Sure it could be additional needs, but equally a child with no boundaries may well act like that too. You have no way of knowing which and either way if it isn't being dealt with you're only stressing you and your kids out. He is 12, so a year or two at most, before they no longer need to bring him on days out where he will clearly kick off Until then I'd stick to adult only meetups.

TheGreysAreComing · 07/08/2019 17:32

It is poor parenting additional needs or not.

Smilebehappy123 · 07/08/2019 17:35

I love how you call the child Damian
He sounds like a little twat
I would arrange to meet adults only
I’f your friend can’t then don’t
Simples , you must be bat shit crazy to even consider holidaying with this family , no chance in Hell you would get me on that ‘holiday’

Sherry19 · 07/08/2019 17:35

This reply has been withdrawn

The OP has privacy concerns and so we've agreed to take this down.

2beautifulbabs · 07/08/2019 17:36

I would echo the same as others have just meet up as adults only just because your all friends doesn't mean your children have to be etc and for your children's own safety best to keep their son at arms length.

I also wouldn't have stayed and missed events because of their son I'd have also said we are going to head on catch us up when you can he'd have soon learnt that he hasn't got an audience to play up to if no one gives a damn what he's doing it may have also given a kick up own parents arses to sort his behaviour out if every time they were going out he was misbehaving and people they were with walked off to let them deal with their sons issues perhaps they would parent better to curb his behaviour.

I think I would be mortified if any of my DC behaved like that or felt it was ruining others experience of being out on trips or holidays😬

MildDrPepperAddiction · 07/08/2019 17:36

I had a friend like this. Her son's behavior was 100% down to the fact he was never told no, never given boundaries and pumped full of sugar.

She was a single mum at the time and used to come and visit me sometimes in the summer with him (I'd moved to a city a few hours away for work). I lived spending time with her, but dreaded him.

I had no DC at the time and spent ages researching activities etc. He did the same as Damien; run off, tantrum, hit other kids and I ended up being the one sorting it as my friend would literally walk off.

Last straw was when he was in the garden with my puppy and she helped really badly. Ran out and she was cowering from him. She said she 'fell over'.

Any more suggestions of a visit we're sidestepped. Unfortunately the friendship drifted, but there is absolutely no bad feeling. Now time has passed we're starting to rekindle the friendship.

I feel your pain, it's such a hard spot to be in.

Coyoacan · 07/08/2019 17:37

Permissiveness and authoritarianism are down to parents not paying attention and this makes their children feel terribly insecure.

Meet up with Lisa on your own and let your DH meet up with Gary on their own until Damien is old enough to be left alone. Sometimes these horrible children turn out quite well, oddly enough, if that is any consolation.

GU24Mum · 07/08/2019 17:37

We have friends with broadly similar children except that they have more than one! The mother is a very good friend of mine from years back and we just only met up for dinner without children for a few years. She may have guessed why but I didn't say anything as it would have killed the friendship.

We went on holiday with different friends with a highly-strung, highly competitive child who was the polar opposite of my DC of the same age. It wasn't a great holiday............. I really wouldn't go away with them but the only thing you can really say is that your children want a family-only holiday - don't offer views on her child and don't give any other reason. She'll probably guess but once it's been said you can't unsay it.