AIBU to question if Brexiteers have any facts to back up their arguments?

[FarawayTreeFolk]

All I get from Brexiteers who believe in No Deal is that they think that "It will be alright!" Is they think everything will miraculously work out for the best.

No facts to offer, nothing. Nothing other than a religious style conviction that it will all be alright in the end.

Is that all they've got at their disposal to convince me that No Deal is a good idea?

socks It's a bit more complicated than that. The Commission is the only body that can introduce legislation. For all the puff, the EP doesn't really have that much power.

Yeah, and I have checked that we vote in our MEPs, they vote in the Commission, who then do the legislation. So they are not unelected. It's how democracy works.
Let's agree to disagree on whether we should leave or remain

Socksontheradiator
As a member of the EU, we currently have trade deals with the US, among others.With a no deal situation, we will be out of these trade agreements overnight.

We have already signed a number of continuity trade agreements with non-EU countries;

"The UK has signed continuity trade agreements with non-EU countries so that trade can continue with minimal disruption after the UK leaves the EU."

These countries account for 64% of trade currently covered by EU agreements for which the UK is seeking continuity.

"The agreements have replicated the EU trade agreements as far as possible.However, there may be some changes to ensure that new agreements work for both countries.When the UK signs further agreements this page will be updated." (July 2019)

If you click on any of the countries in the list it states that the continuity trade agreement "can take effect if the UK leaves the EU without a deal, or at the end of an implementation period."

We have also signed mutual recognition agreements with the United States, Australia and New Zealand.

www.gov.uk/guidance/signed-uk-trade-agreements-transitioned-from-the-eu

Thank you. I'm clearly a bit out of date.

Turkeys voting for Christmas is so fucking demeaning of those that are desperate, really desperate for change still heard it said so often we know the type who love this phrase those who shout from the roof tops about other injustices but yet when it comes to Brexit are unable to show an ounce of empathy

we are heading towards an economic calamity that those fuckwits voted for. Excuse me whilst I give no shits about being demeaning.

I might have empathy or even sympathy for them if they at least had the decency to admit to the possibility that the economic complexities and ramifications are beyond them. However, the overwhelming majority of leavers are so determined they know absolutely how all this will pan out they get no sympathy from me. Yes, there are grievances. Yes, they have been manipulated, but their arrogance leaves me void of any compassion for them. I'll save my compassion for those who are being thrown under the bus and did not vote for this clusterfuck. Those that did vote for it, I hope karma bites them on the arse to the fullest of its ability.

Socks I didn't say the MEPs weren't elected, but the Commission is a much more grey area. I remember when Baroness Ashton was appointed as High Representative. Dh fell off the sofa, as she was supposed to be his new boss and he had never heard of her. The move to reduce the amount of Commissioners this time round also means that some Member States won't have a Commissioner, so is that fair?

Von der Leyen wasn't the spitzenkandidat, but a very compromise candidate after hours of wrangling in the Council, and she didn't exactly get a resounding endorsement.

I voted leave for reasons many on here will not understand.

I was "lucky" enough to do much of my growing up in various European countries as a result of my dfs job.

I am an ethnic minority.

Anyone who feels the Tories are right wing has no idea what that compares to in the rest of Europe.

Prior to the referendum, the right wing parties were gaining ground all over Europe and should they gain power, they would then be able to influence the EU which in turn would influence the UK.

This fills me with terror.

witty This is becoming apparent in Belgium, where a right wing party did well in the recent general election. None of the other parties will form a coalition with this particular party, so no govt in Belgium as yet.

witty that is a very good reason for voting leave. I'm not sure why you think many here will not understand. I know Hungary is giving cause for concern. However there are many and multiple causes for right-wing groups to emerge and each country's issues should be taken in their own context.

In Britain sadly you are in company with those same right-wingers and hate crimes have increased since the referendum. They are being whipped up against and using Britain's economic woes to target the vulnerable. Solve some of the economic issues another way, and I believe that some of the right wing support here will diminish. The same is no doubt true of France, whose own right-wing movement is melting away looking at Britain's mess. In Belgium and the Netherlands too the right wing movement is driven more by economic protectionism than wanting aggression in itself.

Is leaving really the best solution therefore in a British context? Should we not be in Europe, helping our western European allies to defend the EU's founding principles - originally to stop war in Europe, remember, and look at other solutions to both our own economic inequality, and the more indefensible aggression seen in other areas? Perhaps - I don't know them well - the other areas will also see reduction of aggression against vulnerable groups as economic wealth grows?

In short, is British withdrawal from Europe weakening those who would fight for your acceptance?

The Belgian 'right-wing' party scary references incidentally are a pro-Flanders organisation whose chief enemy is the other half of Belgium, francophone Wallonia. They began as nationalists, although it's true the remit has expanded. The situation there would be not dissimilar to what might happen here if Wales suddenly found itself rich beyond its wildest dreams, in economic ascendancy over England, and was asked to provide welfare benefits for most of England. This is what I mean by needing to take each country's issues in their own context.

Wittypun. If all is as you say, you have grievously misunderstood what you have voted for.

wittypun it seems like you've voted to make something definitely bad happen, to avoid the risk that something else bad could potentially happen.

Isn't what wittypun and others who voted leave saying more about faith rather than facts. They have faith in that in the long run all this will be for the greater good of our country although in the short run there will be difficulties. When Fidel Castro brought about revolution and independence in Cuba, he did it for the greater good of his people but did not know what the economic effects of this would be or maybe knew that it would bring short/medium term difficulties.Peasants in the French revolution wanted power back in the hands of the people and maybe thought that whatever happens, it can't get any worse for them. These were big changes brought about by the people but they would not have had facts about what lay ahead of them.

Just checking in to see if I missed any reasonable arguments..... nope.

bellinisurge

that is interesting because its looks more like you are just trying to goad people.

Odd comment @BoneyBackJefferson . I read the thread, looked to see if I'd missed a pertinent argument. I hadn't.

I think the situation has now become of how ardent remainers can reform the problems of the EU from within.

Austerity being an EU approved solution blows out many anti tory rhetoric from the start, we could then go on about how an unelected PM has come to power on a tin y percentage and ignore the new pm of the EU with all the baggage she has.

This isn't the time for brexiteers to validate their situation, its for remainers on MN to validate their dyed in the wool working class backgrounds and try and pretend they are anti tory whilst supporting a neoliberal center right economic agenda.

here is a fact youll like we gave the 350 million a week we sent to the eu to the nhs as promised by the way did Cameron keep his promise of not resigning

here is a fact youll like we gave the 350 million a week we sent to the eu to the nhs as promised by the way did Cameron keep his promise of not resigning

Thanks for the contribution

@Justanotherlurker let’s all get into an argument about how Working Class we are

r let’s all get into an argument about how Working Class we are hmm

Well done in refuting my points..

10/10 in being a typical, "i've never met a brexiteer" meme though.

Since when did facts matter?

Any position taken can have facts made for it.

And the other side's facts are always wrong.

Since when did facts matter?

True, the reason why brexit is a shitshow is because the "dyed in the wool" labour supporters are actually center right economically.

bellinisurge

No odder than yours.