Why do so many people distrust socialism?

[malificent7]

Is it due to the legacy of Marx, the notion that it's a race to the bottom, the feeling that those who work harder should get paid more or a mistrust of human nature?
I do understand these concerns but what is more worrying if the vast inequality that seems to prevail nowadays. Thoughts please.

DdraigGoch I agree. Religious ideologues talk exactly the same way. If there was a way of socialism working well, we'd have seen an example of it by now.

We know. But we (and Denmark) are far more like the US than the USSR and we would like things to stay that way.

You're not America. Not even close.

In America, no one gives a shit if a family sleeps rough. If you didn't work, you don't get any housing benefit (unemployment insurance as it would be called in America I guess but that's still not like for like), you get nothing. You don't even get housing benefit in a low income job. You might get a little help to eat, that's about it. America puts illegal kids in cages. America doesn't care if you don't have enough. America charges students on its most generous student loan program 15-20% of ALL income (and this is only recent from Obama, before that socialist people were even more fucked thanks to Bush). Most jobs hire people on lower rungs part time so they don't have to offer any contribution towards health insurance, which again, even if your company offered it would probably cost you at least £10,000 per year without any prior illness and without using it for NHS level coverage. There is no social housing in America, there was never council housing or right to buy, never heard of anything like that! Basically if you see kids sleeping on the street in tents with their families, don't be surprised! That's just good ol' U S of A. You know why people are so nice in customer service? Because they'll be fired at any time for anything! So didn't smile enough today, Bobby? You're out! You want maternity leave, Sally? Ha ha ha, see you in after birth or you're out! Compassionate leave, Johnny? You think we give a fuck!

Lol.

You're far closer to USSR than you realise but even then, that doesn't mean the pendulum swings automatically to USSR. I would say there's definitely a step before USSR which is Denmark, but absolutely FUCK becoming America!

Because the only Socialists I've ever met live on inheritances, family money and generally money they have not earned. Every self proclaimed socialist I know us middle class, smug as fuck, has never had to work full time and TELLS me about the 'working classes' because what would I know having been reared on benefits and social housing and having attended four RG unis. But hey they know. They make me sick.

gingerbreadsprinkle

Really? I had no idea all those things went on in Canada and other places. I thought it was just the US.

People work and work hard when their efforts are rewarded - it would be the same if you gave a group of chimpanzees a task, where every chimp gets the same regardless of effort, you'd soon find that no chimpanzee bothers to make any effort. Socialism takes away reward for effort by high taxation and redistribution.

What happens in reality (as it did in the UK in the 70s)as wealth creators with talent move elsewhere and there's not enough high earning people to subsidise the rest. Therefore living standards are actually lower for everyone than if you'd just allowed people to keep more of their money.

As Thatcher said, the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money.

Really? I had no idea all those things went on in Canada and other places. I thought it was just the US.

You think the American corporations that have paid off your politicians will let you escape Brexit unscathed like... Canada? Universal healthcare Canada??

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha

I'm sorry I'm sorry I can't breathe. That is so hilarious 🤣

I believe that the main problem with socialism is that humanity is not inherently selfless. Therefore someone will always try to rise above or dominate. So it becomes dangerous /dictatorial.

I love the idea, not compatible with humans unfortunately

Hitler
Former Soviet Union
Cuba (travelled around and seen it on action)
Venezuela
China

gingerbreadsprinkle

I'm sure you realise I was joking. Jokes aside, I don't think that post of yours is worth a reply. You haven't engaged with anything I have said. I don't like the way the US goes about a good many things, but if you really thing the UK is more like the USSR than the USA, then I genuinely don't understand why or even what you know about the USSR. To give one example: the US puts people in cages. The USSR put them in labour camps in Siberia or just put a bullet in the back of their heads.

Hitler?????

Hitler wasn't a socialist.
Educate yourself on "national socialism". Not at all the same thing, although he borrowed the word purposefully.

What happens in reality (as it did in the UK in the 70s)as wealth creators with talent move elsewhere and there's not enough high earning people to subsidise the rest. Therefore living standards are actually lower for everyone than if you'd just allowed people to keep more of their money.

Nah that's not what happens.

I know how this book ends so SPOILER ALERT

When you lose your safety net, living standards are lowered. If there's no legal grounds for giving you a holiday allowance, you get none. There are many jobs in America where you get NO vacation days and even sick days come out of your pay (which are still a luxury)! The wealth creators suck up more money and hide it offshore because they've been given tax cuts. The economy suffers because the ones who pay for services (the lower and middle classes) have lost their funds to the rich in tax cuts, which actually should have gone back to society rather than offshore bank accounts. The economy suffered, people bought fewer things, which forces more jobs to be lost in a vicious cycle.

givemesteel has nailed it, that's why socialism will never work

Btw, apart from the UK and US, socialist parties in Europe are the equivalent to Labour. About centre left.

It's the communist parties that are on the far left.

So, we should be very specific about what kind of socialism we mean.

What happens in the US is irrelevant. Not being socialist doesn't have to mean being like the US.

As far as Western countries go, the US is a complete outlier. All the others - the UK, continental Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia, NZ are similar in that they provide far more of a safety net.

Saying "not being socialist = like the US" is silly rhetoric that doesn't add anything to the discussion.

To give one example: the US puts people in cages. The USSR put them in labour camps in Siberia or just put a bullet in the back of their heads.

If you want to make death of innocents your platform for saying that the USSR was inherently worse than America then I have two words for you... Iraq War.

You know, that little thing that capitalism forced because oil=$$$ and the military industrial complex=$$$

Anyways, it's not an either or situation. You don't have to be the USSR if you don't want to. Like I said, be more Nordic. But don't fall for these lies that capitalism is somehow morally superior.

It is because people assume it is the same as communism. The ussr was communist and this is what comes in to mind for many Imo.

gingerbreadsprinkle

Oh give over.

I said the UK was more like the US than the former USSR and it should stay that way. I didn't say that the UK was identical to the US, or that it should be, and I didn't say that the US was "better" than the USSR (although now that you mention it, the US has undeniably provided a better standard of living for all its citizens).

Here are the reasons why the UK is more like the US than the USSR.

• Both the UK and the US elect their governments. The USSR didn't.
• Both the UK and the US have elected parliaments. The USSR didn't.
• Both the UK and the US have independent judiciaries. The USSR didn't.
• In both the UK and the US you cannot be kept locked up without due legal cause, generally a criminal conviction and habeus corpus is law. In the USSR it wasn't, and any state functionary could incarcerate you.
• Both the UK and the US allow political dissent and independent thoughts and beliefs. The USSR didn't.
• Both the UK and the US allow anyone to operate a business, employ staff, and allow freedom of contract with some restrictions. The USSR didn't.
• Both the UK and the US have a free press. They sometimes talk bollocks, but it is free. The USSR didn't.
• Both the UK and the US allow people to live where they choose, assuming they have the right to be in the country in the first place. The USSR didn't.
• Both the UK and the US reliquished their colonies. The USSR didn't - the area including Kazakhstan and south were all colonies of the Russian Empire. They were incorporated into the USSR and only became independent when it fell apart.
• Both the UK and the US provide living standards that, generally speaking, are very affluent. There are some exceptions, especially in the US. The USSR provided basic living standards for all except the very few, and particularly in central Asia it provided grinding poverty, cultural genocide, forced relocations, inadequate housing, enormously polluted environments and - if you lived in certain parts of Kazakhstan, radiation poisoning that continues until the present day.

I could go on and on.

Perhaps I should get off this thread and re-read Doctor Zhivago as it's one of my favourite books and I'm home from work with a cold.

Lweji No you tell us about your interpretation of “ nationalist socialism” rather than say, “educate yourself”. Scotland are nationalist socialists so tell us what the differences are.

I said the UK was more like the US than the former USSR and it should stay that way. I didn't say that the UK was identical to the US, or that it should be, and I didn't say that the US was "better" than the USSR (although now that you mention it, the US has undeniably provided a better standard of living for all its citizens).

Right now the UK is in a battle over what it's identity is after Brexit. Brexit has always been the objective that US corporations want so they can come over and treat your industries like a chop shop. You had a binary choice whether you realised it or not: Europe or USA. It was never "In" or "Out". Unless the public bitterly fights against the American powers that want to consume the UK like an appetizer, then the UK will become America. There is no use arguing about the Soviet Union. That's straight out of a Fox News playbook to deflect what is really going on.

gingerbreadsprinkle

This thread is about why people distrust socialism. The USSR is relevant because, as I have explained above, it was an example of a socialist state as were all Communist states and furthermore, the logic of socialism (as I have described above) leads to Communism. Even if it doesn't, the logic of socialism leads to suppression of various freedoms to a greater or lesser extent, and I don't want that to happen.

I have been quite careful not to be hyperbolic, and I hope you noticed my post above in which I said the Nazis were not socialists and gave my reasons why.

I don't watch Fox News and I doubt I ever will. I hope you are not suggesting that I culled all the above from Fox News. It's just a bit too much like your earlier "what university was that" remark. I wish you would consider my arguments on their own merits.

Is your point about Brexit that the UK must adopt socialism or inevitably become like the US? Genuine question.

I don’t give a shit about money. Don’t need new, don’t need to impress with my job, don’t need to impress with where I live.However I do want a decent life. That means a nice home ( second hand furniture is fine, even fro the dump rather an aristan up cycler ) an interesting job, time to pursue interests. Not giving a shit about money means I pay all my tax and often work altruistically.
However I fully realise I often get work or get better pay because I am judged to be a bit posh.
And this is the problem with all top jobs....you fit or you don’t. Boris is a dick, too many kids/ girlfriends etc. He Withdrew after the referendum went vote Leave and refused to running for PM and despite it being his campaign.

Is your point about Brexit that the UK must adopt socialism or inevitably become like the US? Genuine question.

All of the arguments you are making are the same arguments made in the media by the hard right in America. The same hard right that is about profit above all and has put Trump in power. If you (as an example of public opinion) have adopted the same mindset then their jobs are already 90% of the way done when it comes to getting everything they want from the UK. Unfortunately what you do not realise is that you are definitely a turkey cheering on Christmas.

@Graphista - capitalism doesn’t work? Eh? Try living in a communist society and see how well you do as a teacher or any average job without connections. All of the worlds best places to live are capitalist economies (including places like Norway which has a good balance). Planned economies have not been successful anywhere economically never mind the horrendous human rights issues and lack of freedom.

Also to the people claiming Cuba has a great health care system- it absolutely doesn’t. There are shortages of everything. You’d be much better off in our NHS in our capitalist country.

My family are immigrants and I can bet if you had to live with the consequences of some of the ideology and dogma spouted by many on the left, you would change your tune pretty quick. We treat the horrors of Stalin and Mao as less evil than hitler but they killed just as many if not more with their ideology. Not to say that extreme right wing regimes are any better than extreme left wing regimes. But how many people are kidding themselves that Cuba is some sort of paradise for those to live there. Why are people risking their lives trying to escape then?

@TomPinch you are also absolutely right that socialism describes a planned economic system rather than capitalism which is a market economy. Planned economic systems have been a disaster everywhere they have been used. Mixed systems with a market economy with socialist provisions have worked best IMO.

@zsazsajuju - thanks! I was starting to feel a bit lonely in my views.