Forcing ideologies onto children?

[LordRudolphVII]

Bit of a strong title I'll admit, but couldn't think of a better way to convey the point.

I'm having a discussion with a friend and was interested to see what people thought. She thinks that things like veganism, hairy armpits, etc (her examples) shouldn't be presented as the norm to children - basically, things that may lead them to be ridiculed when older or make them stand out. She thinks these should be individual choices and left to the individual to decide at an appropriate age.

I'm a bit conflicted personally as things like body hair are no doubt a social construct, but they're also things which can single one out as 'abnormal' so should arguably only be done through choice and because of the personal views of the individual with the understanding that it may make them stand out.

But on the other hand if somebody doesn't believe in eating meat why should they have to feed it to their kids to uphold some societal norm?

People like your friend are never able to see that telling your kids they should shave their body hair is equally ‘forcing an ideology’ on them.

All parents make choices about the moral principles they teach their children, and it’s blisteringly narrow minded to believe that it’s only forcing an ideology when those principles aren’t ones you agree with yourself.

Kids should be given the right to make decisions for themselves on various things as they become old enough to do so. Until they’re old enough, it’s fine for parents to enforce (within reason) the beliefs they uphold.

Viewing it from a male perspective, I'd probably teach my son (if I had one) to shave and let him choose rather than allow him to become a wolfchild because 'it's a social construct'.

Most religious people 'enforce' their beliefs on their kids as do sports fans!

People like your friend are never able to see that telling your kids they should shave their body hair is equally ‘forcing an ideology’ on them.

This I totally agree with. Very similar to those who advocate free speech in only those who agree with them.

Until they’re old enough, it’s fine for parents to enforce (within reason) the beliefs they uphold.

This is somewhat trickier for me as there seem to be many beliefs which are not harmful in the sense of child abuse but which would definitely make a child seem the 'odd one out'. But I guess that's probably where we have to accept our parents for who they are.

I feel like this sometimes. I am a strong feminist and sometime my dh thinks I go ott when 'explaining' things to my dd (10).

He feels I am enforcing my beliefs and feels like I should let dd make up her own mind now she is old enough and intelligent enough to draw her own conclusions.

No help I'm afraid, other than I must say I am guilty of this 🙋‍♀️

An example might be that whilst I'd have no issues in general with a male wearing a dress if he wanted to, I'd be a little wary of sending a young boy to school in one as I know his life would be made a misery by his peers, rightly or wrongly. If he actually understood what he was doing and wanted to do it rather than thinking 'this flappy thing makes my legs nice and cool' then of course I'd have to look at the situation differently.

Having no belief is still a belief.
Teaching kids to respect one another, manners and to be kind is all that matters - anything else you teach your child is irrelevant in regards to being right/wrong IMO.

I don't think many people force anything on to their kids. As parents we just live our lives according to our own moral compass and beliefs (or lack of), and our kids swim alongside, learning from us by osmosis at the very least. Then we advise them in life according to what feels normal for us.

We bring our kids up, they force ideologies on their kids. Especially if we perceive them as 'other' to us.

Whatever you do will indoctrinate your children with your beliefs. And most of the time you will do it totally unconsciously.
And even the most liberal parent will have to decide how much they allow their children freedom to choose and how much they protect them from ridicule by teaching them social norms.

But the minute you make any choice for your children you are enforcing your beliefs. So do you choose a babygrow or dungarees or a dress for a baby? Which toys do you possess? Or do you choose no toys? Even what plasters you buy (and when you have run out except the Barbie ones - do you put one on your son or just let him bleed)?

And the biggest influences will be the choices you make and others around them. If you shave your armpits and so do others around you then it is highly likely your offspring will want to do so. However if you don't but the girls at school do - then it is just as likely that they will want to do so, and may sneak around behind your back to do so unless you openly talk about it as a choice for them.

Oh you're one of those people. No one must be themselves stand out from the crowd in case it draws the attention of the mob.

So basically you think people should make up their own mind, but only from the standard set of parts.

YABU. Its cowardice. Just about everything we do was done differently once.

In an ideal world yes. But I still wouldn't leave my life savings lying in a suitcase on my lawn just because nobody should steal them.

YABU. Its cowardice. Just about everything we do was done differently once.

So I'd be ok turning up to a client meeting in a powdered wig, right?

So basically you think people should make up their own mind, but only from the standard set of parts.

Depends whether they have the mental capacity to make their own choices yet. If not, I'd be wary of burdening them through a belief of mine which they may well not share when they are old enough to make their own decisions (although as mentioned above I do appreciate that there is always an element of bias in one's choices).

I hated having gingerish hair for a long time but wouldn't shave my child's head just because I do the same.

I suppose my point is that there's a pretty wide span of what is considered 'socially acceptable' and I'd think carefully before imposing something on my child which wasn't deemed to be just because it was a choice I made (and I'm not talking about body hair or vegans - they were examples my friend gave).

DH and I are atheist. Our children went to a church primary school. As far as we’re concerned we redressed the balance of the school’s ideology at home. I have a vaguely Jewish background so was able to offer some insight about that religion. I also knew small amounts about Hinduism and Islam. We also bought age appropriate books with more information and actively read them to/with the kids.

We are meat eaters but have also eaten vegetarian meals regularly. As the kids have got older and more informed by their own volition we’re more balanced between meat/non-meat. We’ve experimented with some vegan meals too.

Whilst we’ve put forward our own personal views we’ve also tried to offer a balance. But we’re pretty middle of the road kind of people!

Show don't tell usually.

I'll support and explain pros and cons to dd re shaving, waxing.

I spend a good part of year with hairy pits and dd sees that. However by summer they itch and I wax.

Shell know both ways

I couldn't force religion or anything on her. She attends religious school and questioned herself. I always encourage her to make up her own mind and question everything.

We also talk about tribal allegiances and the need for humans to think there is something bigger, Greek gods etc. Religion that sense of belonging and also political allegiances, how things are framed. The problem with extreme unyielding views.

So far so good, she seems to question everything thus far and seems to understand the why behind it.

Every single choice that we make could fall into this category. How does she decide what's normal and what's abnormal? In doing so she is setting her own set of personal standards and imposing those onto her child. I don't really see how any parent can avoid this?

I’ve thought carefully about every position and opinion I hold, so of course I act on them accordingly and talk these through with my child — there is no ideologically ‘neutral’ position, and I think these things/practice these behaviours because I think they’re morally right, so why wouldn’t I pass them on by example?

If veganism is an ideological position, so is meat eating.

We have to raise our kids by our moral compass. I hope that I give my DC the tools to make informed decisions that are age appropriate. I don’t let them choose whether or not to go to school when they are only 10yo so why would I let them choose whether or not to have a wash or brush their teeth? However I consider that at age 10 they are able to decide whether or not they want to eat meat, given the information to make that choice. My DC happens to be a quirky little boy so, although I may cringe at some of his wardrobe choices, I let him decide what to wear outside of school.

I agree with your friend. It’s fine to present your opinions/beliefs, but don’t force them on others. My mum was vegetarian and cooked a mix of things for us, including meat. I think giving your children a choice is respectful and setting high expectations for them as individuals to make thoughtful choices.

I agree, DH and I believe in marriage and family as priorities for happiness, so we definitely "indoctrinate" our children with those opinions. By that I mean we have discussions about how to be a good partner and parent and try to be good role models. I lost my parents when I was a teen and really struggled with NOT having any parental guidance, so I see it as basic good parenting to guide your kids in ways that you believe are going to bring them greater happiness and be better human beings. I was left to figure out an awful lot alone and believe me it was horribly overwhelming.

Such an interesting thread. I agree DC get 'indoctrinated' by us subconciously as much as on purpose.

Like when I was weaning DS I wanted one of those munchkin 360 water cups, tesco only had pink ones so I bought that one. A friend made a comment like why didn't boots/mothercare and I just thought 'its a plastic cup, who goes to the other side of town to look for a non pink one?'

Conscious choices - We do go to church and once at a cemetry I tried to explain death with a well though out 'well some people believe...' but he wondered off to look at rocks so I'm not sure he's ready for big concepts like God yet. Atm church is the place where he has to sit quietly like in a waiting room then he gets a jammy dodger and to run around with the other kids in the hall. I think he has a vague concept of 'the baby jesus' and he has a guardian angel ornament from my nonna which he likes looking at.

Surely from the age a child begins to learn we have to indoctrinate them to some extent? Right from wrong. Safety, healthy eating etc.

I’m an atheist, was raised in an atheist household but my Grandfather (I was raised by my Grandparents) always said “I don’t believe in any God or religion, but if you decide you do then that’s up to you.” This in my mind was good parenting.

He was also a heavy smoker and drinker. On this subject he said “if you ever want to try a cigarette or have a drink, come and tell me and I’ll get them for you.” This was his way of removing the rebellious element of teen drinking and smoking and whilst we did get a drink or two from him in our late teens - we never took up smoking. A gambit that paid off because he never had to worry about us going off and getting drunk in a field somewhere.

On the opposite side of that scale his arms were covered in tattoos but said “don’t ever get any tattoos - they don’t look right on girls/women”. Very sexist and hypocritical.

Just a few personal examples but I think it’s difficult to answer your question simply as almost all decisions are made using our own moral compass. So long as a Parent does what they can to educate their children and they are fair to said children if they choose a different path - that’s about the best we can do.

I understand what you mean about certain things that are ‘appropriate’ by societies standards.

My Gran didn’t believe that a woman should shave and so refused to buy me any grooming products of this nature. I was 9 when I hit puberty and had hairy armpits, pubic hair and leg hair. I was bullied horrendously because I still had to take part in the weekly swimming classes with my school. I didn’t understand why it was considered ‘gross’ or ‘weird’ as a kid but I do wish my Gran had listened when I begged her to let me shave.

I don’t think she was a villain and I was being pressured into from the bullying. But when my own DD reaches puberty I will probably encourage her to conform to that societal standard whilst she is in school because of the humiliation I experienced growing up. If she says she doesn’t want to, I will support her, but will also have to make her aware of what others might say... so it really is a difficult one!

Some interesting food for thought, and I definitely agree that it's difficult (impossible) not to exert some manner of bias whether conscious or otherwise.

A common idea I see discussed on these forums is the gender stereotyping issue and this is certainly one I struggle with. Things like beauty standards can undoubtedly be damaging and they certainly don't happen in a vacuum, but I'm also unconvinced that the majority of the public wants to do away with the concepts of 'masculinity' and 'femininity', especially considering we live in a country where Love Island is the most popular program on the tv!

Going back to the 'boys in dresses' example, it never seems to get acknowledged that most boys upon reaching their teenage years would be absolutely mortified were their mates to see a photo of them in a dress. This again is of course likely down to social conditioning but it's a factor that makes me speculate about the juxtaposition/relationship between 'how things should be' and the acceptance (or not) of 'how things actually are'. Ok, I'm waffling a bit now but hopefully my point is somewhat clear.

I'm a vegan, an atheist and a feminist. I'll be bringing my children up as all these things. They're free to choose to eat meat, worship etc when they're old enough to make their own decisions but I won't be giving it to them or encouraging them to do so.

Feeding a child meet is forcing a choice onto them, just as much as feeding them a vegan diet. Just because one choice is more common than the other, does not make it better.

I grew up vegetarian and am glad I did. Evidence shows that it is healthier than an omnivorous diet.