Forcing ideologies onto children?

[LordRudolphVII]

Bit of a strong title I'll admit, but couldn't think of a better way to convey the point.

I'm having a discussion with a friend and was interested to see what people thought. She thinks that things like veganism, hairy armpits, etc (her examples) shouldn't be presented as the norm to children - basically, things that may lead them to be ridiculed when older or make them stand out. She thinks these should be individual choices and left to the individual to decide at an appropriate age.

I'm a bit conflicted personally as things like body hair are no doubt a social construct, but they're also things which can single one out as 'abnormal' so should arguably only be done through choice and because of the personal views of the individual with the understanding that it may make them stand out.

But on the other hand if somebody doesn't believe in eating meat why should they have to feed it to their kids to uphold some societal norm?

I think parents too need to be aware that most children under a certain age will adopt and parrot their parent's beliefs, as they're at the stage where they think their parents are all knowing, and they want to please them- and what better way than agreeing with them over a strongly held belief. So the parent starts off with the advantage and the power over the child

Which means that an eight year old girl saying "yes mummy I love my blue tractor jumper and I'll never shave my legs" is possibly wanting to please mum rather than holding any deeply held belief, mum should recognise that and not make the child feel that she is betraying her family if she gets to twelve and wants pink things and a Venus razor

Why do you assume that any child or adolescent who does not conform to societal norms will be bullied about it? IME with children who have various degrees of emotional resilience, the least resilient get bullied the most, regardless of how much they conform.

"mum should recognise that and not make the child feel that she is betraying her family if she gets to twelve and wants pink things and a Venus razor"

And the opposite too. My instincts were always low maintenance and I preferred "comfortable" to "groomed" even from childhood. Unfortunately, I had a mother who was constantly nagging me and telling me I had "no pride" because I wasn't interested in perfect eyebrows or waxing, and that did horrible things to my self-esteem. Admittedly, my mother is an extreme case (I'll never forgive her for turning up with an expensive hair removal device when I was a single mother with an newborn, sleep-deprivation and an infected c-section scar because "I just feel so sorry for you because you must feel so embarrassed about your facial hair" , and then having a meltdown about how ungrateful I was for not using it). But I think it's very common for parents to bully their kids because they worry they're going to get bullied for not conforming. And that's understandable up to a point, but, at the end of the day, you have to be your child's safe space and the person who accepts them no matter what.

There is no such thing as free choice.

Start there.

mum should recognise that and not make the child feel that she is betraying her family if she gets to twelve and wants pink things and a Venus razor

Well, literally every other source of information about 'normality' in this child's life will almost certainly be telling her that presenting a socially-sanctioned, hairless 'feminine' appearance is compulsory, so frankly, if her mother is emitting a different message, it at least present her with other options and may help to avoid the horrifying consequence we are seeing at the moment -- 'If I don't like shaving off my body hair and wearing pink and being conventionally 'feminine', I must be in the wrong body and am really a boy'.

I believe religion and gender neutral crap shouldn't be forced on them too.

I disagree with the PPs who say atheism is not a belief.
Of course it’s a belief! You believe there is no God.
You have no way to prove your assertion - there is no logical method for proving a negative.
And thousands of Christians have had direct encounters with the presence of God.
Indoctrinating your child in atheism is just the same as with any other “ism”. You’re teaching them that Christ was a liar, death is final, they are not cherished by a loving God and the Bible should be ignored.
I regard those as appalling things to teach any child.
On the wider issue of raising children in general, all parents model their own beliefs and values, both consciously and unconsciously- you cannot raise kids in a vacuum while you sit on the fence (to mix metaphors!)
When your DC are older they will begin to question you as they develop their own views.
You should be prepared to defend your beliefs with logical argument, but accept that your DC may have a different opinion. As long as you’ve raised them with good moral values, it shouldn’t be a problem.

Indoctrinating your child in atheism is just the same as with any other “ism”. You’re teaching them that Christ was a liar, death is final, they are not cherished by a loving God and the Bible should be ignored

The utter silliness of this statement makes me despair of medics. I teach my child that, yes, death is final and that this is OK, God is a human fiction, the Bible is a key text for understanding much of Western literature, and that Jesus was a wandering itinerant preacher with an inspired gift for storytelling and some interesting things to say about social justice.

It's fine to live by your beliefs but they should not negatively affect your child eg it's fine not to eat meat but it's essential that you do ensure your child has a healthy balanced diet, this is particularly tricky for vegan diets. Once children are old enough to be away from their parents and make decisions then they should be allowed to choose eg schools should not have to police kids choices, if a vegan child wants chicken, fine, if a Muslim child wants pork, also fine (obviously allergies are different).

It would be pretty much impossible for a parents beliefs not to influence their child’s, especially at a young age.

However part of good parenting is to help young people develop critical thinking and questioning skills so they can figure things out for themselves. It’s also important to teach them to respect others even if they have differing views.

@SuzieQQQ re gender neutral uniform my school is going gender neutral from September. We no longer have a boys/girls uniform list just a uniform list that consists of
trousers, shirt, tie,
skirt, open necked shirt,
plus blazer for both combinations and low heeled black shoes.

That is it.

PE uniform is being looked at as well.

@Hearthside I'm not a vegetarian myself but I think it's very scary to think we live in a world where people think the correct moral answer to being upset by seeing the reality of a practice we engage in (meat eating) is to bury our heads in the sand and never see it, as if not seeing it means it doesn't happen or makes it ok.

If you are so distressed by seeing what happens in an abattoir then you probably shouldn't eat meat. It's not like that isn't an option.

There are plenty of other negative and traumatic experiences a child can have before they're able to rationalize it other than X person being mean to them. Conformity for the sake of it, that the child doesn't understand or choose, can be equally negative and distressing and can be just as ideologically rooted as non-conformity. There are far more concerning things (look at ACE scores and other things which do show childhood experiences that have an impact on adulthood), and I think a focus on making sure a child is going in conforming to a standard is more likely to cause one of those issues than it is to prevent bullying.

Literally, the only person who bullied me for my body hair was my mother. After I stopped living her at 15, there were a lot of 'conformity' things that I found actually no one cared about it. Lots of 'conforming' stuff I did as a kid I look back on with horror, as do many others when I describe them. I was literally put in dance lessons for years to be more feminine and girly and ended up with overtraining injuries that will never fully go away. One of the reasons my mother gave for bleaching my hair at four was that I would look prettier and have more friends. It's how she convinced me sit still through it. No ideology for this "out there" action she imposed on me, she was very much trying for me to be more socially acceptable, she wanted me to conform to a highly held beauty standard, she didn't want me to be bullied for having ugly hair so she did what she thought was best about it. Most people I meet now think it's fucked up to colour a kid's hair for aesthetics, but no adult ever said anything around me about it. I just thought I must be that ugly since I was still bullied with the pretty hair (I still think I look hideous in my childhood photos - but mostly because of the hair).

Kids don't learn reason or how to process out of nowhere just from reaching a certain age. We're social animals, we learn from others around us. While I might get why some might shake their head at the parent who won't buy the harmless popular thing for reasons or allowing their kids to do something non-conforming that could cause trouble like not getting a hair cut for boys or letting girls get very short hair cuts (I've done both), the parent who is buying and doing all the things in hopes it will mean their child is socially acceptable is teaching lessons as well - and it's not always the ones they might think they are or get the result they want.

I think the key thing with children is to present facts as facts and beliefs as beliefs.

‘We do this because I believe...’ etc. Equally you should say ‘ you can do this but, given where and when we exist, the norm is to do this’.

The above are all great discussions to have with children’s and adolescents. However it does require an adult to have some idea of what is an opinion and what is (at least close to) a fact.

Indoctrinating your child in atheism is just the same as with any other “ism”. You’re teaching them that Christ was a liar, death is final, they are not cherished by a loving God and the Bible should be ignored.
I regard those as appalling things to teach any child.

But true.

You’re teaching them that Christ was a liar, death is final, they are not cherished by a loving God and the Bible should be ignored.
I regard those as appalling things to teach any child.

And you're teaching your child that Mohammad was a liar, that Vishnu doesn't exist, and that everyone who happens to believe one of the many other holy books other than yours is a doomed to hell.

Not exactly parent of the year stuff.

We all pass on our values and ideologies to our kids, to a greater or lesser degree. It's inevitable.

The key for me lies in acknowledging the fact that different people have different points of view and in encouraging dc to think critically and draw their own conclusions.

The key for me lies in acknowledging the fact that different people have different points of view and in encouraging dc to think critically and draw their own conclusions.

And this is what most parents don't do. Just read Babdoc's post above, does anyone really think she'd be happy for her kids to draw their own conclusions, and perhaps reject Christianity? Not a chance.

I'm sure the mother of a small lamb being taken away for slaughter gets pretty distressed too

By the time lambs are taken away they will have been weaned. Ewes are quite keen on weaning and are unlikely to be distressed or notice. Dairy cows having their calves removed however is horrendous and the mothers get very distressed..

You’re teaching them that Christ was a liar, death is final, they are not cherished by a loving God and the Bible should be ignored

Nothing in my life ever has led me to think a god exists. I distinctly remember sitting in an RE class aged 7 and thinking this is not true. I don't believe god is real.

The concept of being cherished by a loving god is as meaningless to me as saying the gods of Olympus are looking down kindly on me. I used to , and still do, love mythology. I had an Enid Blyton book of Greek myths which kick started my interest. The stories in the Old Testament were just the same. Eve is no more real than Pandora.

For me, the important thing is to convey to my children that they can choose and think differently from me and that's fine. They are not me, it's their life and they need to plough their own furrow. I try to keep things as neutral as possible (e.g. I don't believe in God but Granny does and so do lots of other people", "I'm not a vegan but x is because they think y". I think it's important to teach them that there are very few absolutes in terms of morality, values and social norms that everyone agrees on.

And if someone does believe that Christ was a liar, is their belief any less valid than yours?

I talk about current affairs and politics with my children. I'm often to be found mumbling my displeasure at the news so I explain my opinions. I also explain about the importance of questioning people's opinions, understanding bias and finding out facts for yourself.

They'd happily believe anything YouTubers say is true. DS1 enjoys videos about rockets, earthquakes, Chernobyl and volcanoes but maybe a spotty YouTuber's idea of how to bring down North Korea might not be a workable plan.

It's all indoctrination. Even the "make up your own mind" approach is indoctrination.

As stated upthread the only variable is who is percieving it, if it's "other" it's indoctrination and if it's "normal" it's not.

There's no right or wrong, and that in itself is a belief in "post modernism", which counts as indoctrination.

I am happily indoctrinating my child to ask and answer "how are you?" "I'm ok". My DM is utterly disgusted, she believes that kind of interaction is a meaningless hindrance that should be banned. She definitely sees it as "other" and therefore indoctrination. Whereas most people would consider that social ritual "normal".