Forcing ideologies onto children?

[LordRudolphVII]

Bit of a strong title I'll admit, but couldn't think of a better way to convey the point.

I'm having a discussion with a friend and was interested to see what people thought. She thinks that things like veganism, hairy armpits, etc (her examples) shouldn't be presented as the norm to children - basically, things that may lead them to be ridiculed when older or make them stand out. She thinks these should be individual choices and left to the individual to decide at an appropriate age.

I'm a bit conflicted personally as things like body hair are no doubt a social construct, but they're also things which can single one out as 'abnormal' so should arguably only be done through choice and because of the personal views of the individual with the understanding that it may make them stand out.

But on the other hand if somebody doesn't believe in eating meat why should they have to feed it to their kids to uphold some societal norm?

I am absolutely horrified by many of the clothes and hairstyles I was made to wear and have photos taken in as a child. Many of those dresses were hideous and in primary school my mother thought I looked best with bleached platinum blonde hair. I keep what few photos I have in the photobook that I was given stored away. I have probably 5 or so I like enough to share and I was bullied many times for what she had me look like. I had no choice in my appearance until I was 15 or so.

My 7-year-old son did choose today to wear a bright pink bobble hat, dino t-shirt, and bright green trousers and some days he wears his older sisters dresses, and if he's embarrassed in ten years' time, he can hide away his photos too. If he or any of my other kids were being bullied for their appearance, that would be difficult. My DD (12) has had some nasty comments about her short hair (her father and I both have waist-length hair, and all of our kids have hair ear length or shorter of their own choices), but so far it's been from the kids who make nasty comments pretty much to anyone about anything & we can't live trying to appease those sort.

Many of the things being discussed aren't ideologies, or at least aren't always ideologies. People can be vegan or not shave for reasons that have nothing to do with a system and (often oversimplified) concept of reality based on ideals and beliefs. Some are vegan because they find it easier to be healthy or avoid allergens that way or just don't the way animal products taste and some don't shave because it irritates our skin or we can't be arsed - no ideology required.

Whether or not we 'present them as normal', kids learn the status quo around them. Like I said, my mother bleached my hair from an early age, it really didn't take me long to notice that that wasn't very common. However I eat, deal with my body hair or head hair, what I wear, or anything else like that, my kids know what is normal for our area. I mean, growing up, I knew most people celebrated Christmas and Easter, but that most didn't deal with mothers like mine who were obsessed with it or had to wear ridiculous dresses and do performances at their grandfather's church just like now my kids are aware most people celebrate those holidays even when we don't.

Dp is vegan so we eat a mostly plant based diet and ds will when he’s older too as it fits in with our lifestyle. Nevertheless, I’d never stop him from eating meat or dairy while out or if offered to him by someone else. He’s only 7 months now and I buy him eggs, fish and dairy products to ensure he gets enough fat in his diet.

I do think kids should be given the freedom for food preference within reason (healthy). Parents should also accommodate their child should they wish to go vegan/vegetarian- it’s pretty awful to force meat on them.

Making sure your children don't stand out is enforcing an idealogy on them too, the idealogy that you must fit in.

I think the best thing about diversity and multiculturalism is that there is room to be different. Let's ditch normal (it doesn't exist, anyway!)

Making sure your children don't stand out is enforcing an idealogy on them too, the idealogy that you must fit in.

And that you must fit in with a specific thing which is declared 'normal'. I'm not from the UK and never understood large amounts of Mn (like the bizarre 'othering' playground attitude to unusual names, even if they're bog standard in a different culture, or the weird attitude to mowing lawns as a sort of public morality) until I moved from London to rural England.

Every decision you make as a parent could come under this.

It’s kind of weird how vegan isn’t is seen as a toxic ideology to force on a child, but industrially killing and eating animals is not. But whatever.

Parents have the right to provide their kids with the social and moral constructs they value. Kids then eventually get to chose which ones to keep. Within all that, the “don’t be a dick” rule is paramount.

@MissPollyHadADolly19

“Having no belief is still a belief”

It really, really isn’t.

I heard some schools are going to “gender neutral” uniforms. What is that? They were talking about trousers. Although that’s usually a male uniform. So why shouldn’t we consider men wearing skirts? But they never would, this is societal conditioning.

"I had no choice in my appearance until I was 15 or so."

Don't worry - I was 25 when I finally asserted my right to choose my own clothes/ get my hair cut against my mother's wishes. Now that really is embarrassing!!

Yes they do paddy of course.
It's just I'm stuck by how sensitive we are to the things that happened as a child and it always strikes me most on the Xmas threads. Eg my dp never did fc delivering all the presents, just a carrot and whittling tool so that's what I'll do for mine... Humans are very programmable when young.

They don't really get a chance at religious school, then taken to church, then reinforced again by stern parents frowning if they say they don't believe. It is brainwashing into it. Layers upon layers.
Same with politics. I've never come across the extreme left in rl but on here I can imagine the dinner table talk and making their dc feel ashamed if they either just are not that extreme or swing voters in the middle.
It's all brainwashing.
Our dc are not our belongings and whilst we naturally, unconsciously furnish them with our life's values we should also try and be more mindful that they are not us, and give more balanced view.

Or allow them without judgement to develop their own.

I read on here once about deeply religious lady asking what to do because her teen was refusing church and all the extras... She was saying 'I've tried telling her she must /she's upsetting me /letting us down'

I shuddered. That poor kid.

Same with Xmas crap. Op says 'I never did it and I'm fine I won't do it either'

Why not try and abd see how it goes? Why pride one's self on being closed minded!
For example.
Just try and stay balanced in the middle.

Need to buy, that's embarrassing for your dm or dp but not you.

Dh mum same still trying to dress him now 🤔

Our dc are not our belongings and whilst we naturally, unconsciously furnish them with our life's values we should also try and be more mindful that they are not us, and give more balanced view.

But I would assume that you, like any reasonably thoughtful person, have come to your views after prolonged thought, so why are you seeming to default to the assumption that these carefully thought-out views are not 'balanced', and that it's better to hand on to your children views that you don't in fact hold?

Having no belief is still a belief.

It really isn't.

@Knittedjimmychoos

Indeed.

That said, over-indoctrination can have the opposite effect. I had a very Irish Catholic upbringing - mass all the time, catholic school, alter boy, the works.

Now I’m a staunch atheist who values science and reason above all else.

So we should give our kids more credit. They’ll find their own way in the end.

My DH and I are both vegan and will be raising our baby as such (as long as I can ebf - obviously fed is best and we'll do whatever is healthier for the child). However, it's a dietary choice we made as adults, so if the child decides it wants to eat differently once old enough to make that choice, that's fine. I think it's important to let children choose how they want to be and not force your own ideologies on them, even if you do feel strongly about it (which I do)

From the moment a child is born they are being taught/guided/indoctrinated. What you call it depends on your attitude. They will be influenced by everything. I find it interesting that of all the controversial beliefs you could alight on (should humans wear clothes, people have multiple spouses, should girls be allowed to attend school, is there a God, is it ok to steal.... I could go on) you chose armpit hair and eating meat. I mean, really, who cares!

No belief is of course a belief. I do not believe in God, I do not have a belief in what is up/down/out there, I simply do not know. This is my belief. I do not believe in fairies.
There are lots of things people feel passionately about that I am uninterested in. I have few beliefs or opinions on fashion. These are beliefs.

My child has been fully indoctrinated into my annoyingly open liberal set of non beliefs. Luckily we live somewhere that you're likely to see hairy women tucking into steak and suited men at a vegan cafe.

Again, who cares. I have pity for and deride the person who would indoctrinate another to ridicule and hate someone based on armpit hair and fondness for lentil burgers.

I see your hairy armpit vegans and raise you Westborough Baptists getting small children to wave "God hates fags" banners. Now that's indoctrination on a whole other level.

The thing with pussy footing around and being careful not to give your beliefs to your kids is that you can be damn sure that other people won’t be so hesitant.

Your kids will be exposed to outside influences - church leaders, their peers, YouTube videos, some of it particularly horrible. So if you do want them to make up their own mind, at least give them the tools of critical thinking and ability to evaluate evidence.

A child that makes it into adulthood not in a vegetative state will have lots of beliefs, I suppose whether it's desirable for the parent to have had some influence on those depends on whether we think the parents ideas are better or worse than ones that would otherwise have been there.

The child isn't going to stay a blank slate because parents consciously try to avoid passing on what they believe. All such a parent is doing is increasing the influence of a random set of other people, whose beliefs the parent must think inferior, if they differ at all, otherwise the parent would share them.

Of course parents teach their children to live in a way that they think it right. That's literally human nature. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise - that parents should somehow dismiss all their morals and values and life lessons and teach their children to form entirely their own opinions about everything. Parents are supposed to guide and lead in the best way they know how.

If you are religious and take your children along to worship then you are forcing an ideology on them. If you’re a sports fan and take your DC along to every game then you’re forcing an interest on them.

With the veganism thing you could so easily say the same for meat eating. You’re not giving them a choice whether to eat meat or not if you automatically give them it, children just tend to eat what’s put in front of them.

All parents have to ‘force’ some sort of belief on their children, it’s impossible to sit on the fence with every aspect of life. They have free will to make their own decisions as they grow.

No belief is of course a belief. I do not believe in God, I do not have a belief in what is up/down/out there, I simply do not know. This is my belief. I do not believe in fairies.
There are lots of things people feel passionately about that I am uninterested in. I have few beliefs or opinions on fashion. These are beliefs.

If not believing in god is a belief, then not collecting stamps is a hobby, "Off" is a TV channel, bald is a hair style and celibacy is a sexual position.

As an atheist, you really should know the difference between a lack of belief and a belief.

Depends whether they have the mental capacity to make their own choices yet. If not, I'd be wary of burdening them through a belief of mine which they may well not share when they are old enough to make their own decisions

There’s a big difference between letting your son wear a dress and encouraging your son to wear a dress.

I generally think children’s choices - even if unconventional - should be respected in so far as it’s possible. It’s an important part of allowing them to develop their own autonomy. And I think it would be very sad to compromise that out of fear that they might one day be so cowed by societal expectations that they regretted it. I would much prefer to let them make their choices and at the same time help them develop resilience, self-confidence and open-mindedness.

It’s only natural that as parents our views and beliefs will infleunce the child.

The issue comes when the child isn’t allowed to question things and develop their own views.

I am christian, when ds was a baby he was christened and raised as Christian. As he got older he started questioning things and decided he didn’t believe in anything - and I respect that and if I am filling in the religion section of a form For him now I wouldn’t dream of ticking Christian. He may or may not change his view as he gets older (I can’t see it). But he has formed his views so I respect that.

All parents force certain things on to dc though, be it what football team to support, religious or not, vegetarian etc etc

Its all well and good people saying ‘“They can choose for when they are old enough” but I’m all honestly most people keep the same views etc Mummy and daddy had

All parents force ideologies on their children.
Anything like reading is good, Arsenal are the best football team, don’t eat with your mouth open, you can’t take things from the shops without paying, brush your teeth twice a day, meat is murder, humans are omnivores, You could go on forever.
Everyone should be free to make up their own minds when they want to though.