Forcing ideologies onto children?

[LordRudolphVII]

Bit of a strong title I'll admit, but couldn't think of a better way to convey the point.

I'm having a discussion with a friend and was interested to see what people thought. She thinks that things like veganism, hairy armpits, etc (her examples) shouldn't be presented as the norm to children - basically, things that may lead them to be ridiculed when older or make them stand out. She thinks these should be individual choices and left to the individual to decide at an appropriate age.

I'm a bit conflicted personally as things like body hair are no doubt a social construct, but they're also things which can single one out as 'abnormal' so should arguably only be done through choice and because of the personal views of the individual with the understanding that it may make them stand out.

But on the other hand if somebody doesn't believe in eating meat why should they have to feed it to their kids to uphold some societal norm?

There's no way to prevent values and beliefs being shared with children. It's important to encourage critical thinking skills so they can evaluate ideas and weigh up evidence as they can get older.

Some parents are more militant in the way they present their beliefs though. For example, if their child has a different faith than them they take it as a failure as a parent so try to limit their access to different views or slate other views / some parents will send a 3 year old boy in a the girliest dress possible to nursery, not because their child thought it was pretty but that having a boy in a dress adds to their woke credentials.

I think what you, the parent, values is more important than the social norm. After all, I wouldn't do things the way I do if I felt they were wrong, or not the best way. So, yes, I present my beliefs to my dc as 'the norm'. I also teach them that others do/believe things differently, and that all should be treated with respect.

Children need knowledge and understanding of options in order to make their own informed choices.

This is a really interesting post and very relevant to something that happened to us yesterday. I am not going to say where as it would be outing .I was out yesterday with 3 DC's and a friend of one of my DC's .While we were walking through a very busy City centre we were faced with a group in White masks with the black features on them , looked dam scary to me let alone a child. They were oviously promoting veganism , fair enough i don't have any objection to anyones anyone's belief. But here is the part i strongly object too.
They were holding laptop's i didn't look but my 11yr old DC did and they were showing graphic and i mean graphic abattoir sense .I had one distraught DC who it took me a while to console .I can't put into words how furious i was , i wanted to go back and actually challenge them over the distress they had caused and what bloody right have they as there were lot younger children around and i didn't realise my DC had seen until they got so distressed .And what is worse one them a woman holding the laptop saw my DC look saw their expression oviously upset and DC said i looked straight at her mum and her expression didn't flinch What bloody evil bitch 😡.I get they don't agree with meat eaters but they absolutely no right to do what they did .Other's my disagree but as you can tell i am still angry over it today .From what i can gather they have do it in shops and been escorted out and shout abuse at any parents who challenge them.

On the opposite side of that scale his arms were covered in tattoos but said “don’t ever get any tattoos - they don’t look right on girls/women”. Very sexist and hypocritical.

Well he was half right...they look crap on men too.

No point having kids if you don't raise them with the beliefs, that you believe in.

It's only wrong when you don't allow them to think about what they believe in as they get older and to look around and see other paths and choices. It's also not good if you turn them away if they believe different from you.

However saying that as I believe in God, I would find it hard to have a relationship with my child if they decided to become a satanist or pagan. In fact, I probably would not have a relationship with them except to help if they were in a bad situation.

Eating meat and being vegan, or hairy vs hairless are not that important in the grand scheme of things. Well not important to me anyway.

I'm vegetarian, one child does not eat any red meat but likes chicken whereas youngest eats a vegetarian diet at home but will happily eat lamb and chicken whenever offered. Should I tell her off and tell her she is doing wrong?? I would prefer her not to eat any meat but as children grow they make more and more of their own choices until they are independent.

I'm still on the fence as I believe our early experiences can very often profoundly shape the way we turn out. I'm not necessarily saying this is my personal belief, but one could reasonably argue that the priority should be to avoid children having negative experiences before they are able to rationalise why x person has been horrible to them and thus come to terms with it/brush it off through reasoned reflection.

Non-conformity can be (and often is) explored in one's teenage years onwards, but early trauma from bullying, for example, may be much harder to dispel.

That said, I'm not proposing we should all be sheep, but I do sometimes cringe when I read the more 'out there' things which some parents impose on their kids in keeping with their own somewhat revolutionary ideas.

I suppose I'm also very cynical and couldn't stand the thought of sending my children into a situation where it was almost a certainty that they would be horribly bullied - even with the acknowledgement that they shouldn't be.

Hairy armpits ffs lol! I'm more bothered about parents who force outdated religious ideology on their children and teach them to be bigoted and prejudiced towards those who don't share their beliefs, ime this is extremely dangerous to society but is allowed to happen anyway due to political correctness.

This would bother me much more than a mother not shaving I mean what kind of nutter would try and force their pubescent or adult child not to shave, I doubt it even happens whetheras there's millions of religious nutcases inflicting their bizarre beliefs onto their children willy nilly and no one says a damn thing even when it is proven these beliefs cause judgemental and bigoted attitudes to other ways of life.

Not to mention these beliefs actually causing the sexual abuse and death of thousands of 'non believers', as well as the bigoted and prejudiced attitudes.

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.
Philip Larkin, High Windows

What's wrong with being a pagan flirtygirl I'm a Catholic but would not be fussed if DS became one...the pagans I know are gentle hippy types that offer to waft sage around your house if you are going through a bad time or invite you to wake up early to watch the sunrise on the summer solstice in a field with them.

All perfectly lovely and no different to me offering to light a candle at mass for someone or inviting them to a Carol service.

Interesting thread. My parent were very liberal people who had dabbled in a lot of lefty activism, but instead of raising me in a camper van in a field, they raised me in a suburban semi and sent me to a naice socially conservative school. While still following their hippy principles. This meant I looked like a rag bag, never had any decent stuff, and was expected to boycott just about everything going. They had me running round the school with petitions for this that and the other for the other pupils to sign and encouraged me to turn down offers of, for example, Coke, at friend's parties, because it was an evil big brand. It was all well and good and they definitely had a point, but it marked me out as a weirdo and I really struggled socially all the way though school. Ideally we should all be true to ourselves, but it's a bit rich to expect a twelve year old girl to stand out from the herd and take on the world when most adults don't! At least not if you're expecting them to learn how to engage with society in a meaningful way. It would probably have been fine if they'd sent me to Steiner school or something but they sent me to the most straight laced school imaginable, then encouraged me to rebel and question everything. Consequently I've probably gone the other way - I now crave normality.

I see some parents online who are all about their gender neutral, rainbow clad three year old, and while I think that's fine and admirable (and something I have tried to follow with my own children) some of them are very extreme, to the exclusion of all things pink or blue, or with tractors/princesses on it. That to me is the red flag for someone who is going to go too far and end up with an unexpectedly stereotypical adult child

Eta: it's OK having the rainbow clad three year old, it's when the child becomes 8 or 9 and is the only child in class who doesn't have a Shopkins set or something equally popular, because of mummy and daddy's principles - mummy and daddy can feel smug about their principles when it's the child running the gauntlet of being the social outcast

I think you cannot help but pass your views and values on your children.

So you’d just better make sure they are the right ones.

Hearthside- I'm sure the mother of a small lamb being taken away for slaughter gets pretty distressed too. I'm not a vegetarian but I don't think I could get too worked up about my kids seeing the reality of the meat industry.

@MissPollyHadADolly19 nailed it

It's when the child becomes 8 or 9 and is the only child in class who doesn't have a Shopkins set or something equally popular, because of mummy and daddy's principles - mummy and daddy can feel smug about their principles when it's the child running the gauntlet of being the social outcast.

This is pretty much what I was trying to articulate.

Hairy armpits ffs lol! I'm more bothered about parents who force outdated religious ideology on their children

But you're making it all about your views. Being the only teenager in the changing room with bushy armpits is what is more likely to get a child horribly bullied. It makes me think of the shower scene from the film/book Carrie.

Except, that wasn't exactly what you were advocating OP. You were also advocating encouraging making your child conform, rather than follow their own ideas/principles. And whilst that may come from a good place, the result is anything but good.

Vulpine you are as bad as the idiots with the laptops .Fyi my DC was in bits it was bloody graphic and no need .So fuck off with your sarcasm .

I'm sure the mother of a small lamb being taken away for slaughter gets pretty distressed too.

You have no idea if that's true. Neither do I. You're projecting human emotions on to animals.

"You must shave your armpits, dd...standards of beauty...be teased...etc" = imposing an ideology/belief.

"You must not shave your armpits, dd...symbol of women's oppression...natural beauty..." = imposing an ideology/belief.

"It's up to you whether you shave your armpits, dd. I'll support you whatever you choose to do." = presenting an ideology/belief.

Three very different ideologies/beliefs.

Surely whether it’s being a vegan, a Christian or not being allowed to shave armpits, it’s the fact of it being forced on the child that is the problem? And the autonomy of the child not being developed/nurtured that is the problem? The question shouldn’t be whether it’s worse to be forced to attend Mass or forced to read the Guardian, it’s this idea of force.

Except, that wasn't exactly what youwereadvocatingOP. You were also advocating encouragingmakingyour child conform, rather than follow their own ideas/principles. And whilst that may come from a good place, the result is anything but good.

Well, I was more playing devil's advocate as I stated 'one could argue', but I'll admit to exploring the concept that children choices should be vetted to err on the side of caution until they are definitely making these choices for their own reasons. That is, the avoidance of early trauma through bullying/alienation by adopting something that they don't really understand the implications of, don't really care about, and possibly won't embrace in a few years time.

Or putting it more candidly (and this is just an example)....if a girl is very likely to end up shaving her armpits by her own volition anyway, should she have to endure bullying from her peers and end up traumatised just so she can be an advertisement for her parents beliefs?

Struggling to explain without sounding goady. 🤔