To wonder how one would go about abolishing private schools?

[Chuffin]

If anyone is following the @abolisheton campaign, they state their aim is to integrate private schools into the public sector and hope this to be included in Labours next manifesto.

My children are about to start independent school, having had a terrible time for a whole host of reasons in their state primary.

Aside from the moral argument for or against private schools, I am very interested in whether it would be legally possible to abolish private schools and how this would happen? Would this even be feasible realistically?

My three children have all been differently schooled. One home educated, one state academy and one independent. They have all done well because I could choose what they needed. A country without choice does not thrive so I can't see that suggestion getting through our parliament.

I think part of the problem is the mindset that private education is a choice. It really isn’t.

I think part of the problem is the mindset that private education is a choice. It really isn’t

Much like the state system really? The notion of choice is a myth?

Because the private system isn’t a choice for everyone, doesn’t mean it isn’t a choice in and of itself.

Someone upthread has said that, to be a MP, the children of that MP should go to state school. I think quite a few do go to Grey Coat Hospital.

Looking at the admissions code, all applicants sit an assessment (they have banding) and you need to fulfil the religious requirements plus live close enough. There are also 15 language aptitude places. Although this describes itself as a CoE comprehensive, I wouldn’t think of it as a comprehensive - even if we lived close enough, it’s very unlikely that my children would get in.

So the MPs who chose this school get to claim that they support state education even though, to get in, they have to hit a bunch of criteria that most wont meet. Similarly, my MP’s children went to or go to Dame Alice Owen - a number of places at this Hertfordshire school are reserved for Islington children who pass an exam.

This irritates me more than MPs sending their children to private school.

Sorry, won’t meet.

Don’t worry @CruCru - in My Glorious Reign faith criteria and other backdoor selection will go too!

I think part of the problem is the mindset that private education is a choice. It really isn’t

I agree. Two of ours are educated privately. I'd feel mortified if those children somehow thought they were there because their parents made better choices than other parents. They know they are there because grandpa helps, they have scholarships, bursaries, and still they are financially very fortunate.

BertrandRussell Why is it not a choice?

Because it’s not really a choice if only a select few can make that choice. It’s not my “choice” to run for US president for example

I think part of the problem is the mindset that private education is a choice. It really isn’t.

It isn't a free choice for everyone but that doesn't make it not a choice. This is a graph of the distribution of household income in the UK, divided into deciles. Any child from a household in deciles 1 or 2 who passed the exams would qualify for a bursary at a great many schools, and those in decile 3, 4 and 5 would get at least partial support. Families in decile 2 can and do survive so it follows that a family in deciles 6 & 7 can choose to modify their standard of living to match those in decile 2 and would then have £15k per year for school fees - not a comfortable choice but still a choice. In decile 8 you're only talking about reducing your lifestyle to match those in deciles 4&5 for 1 child's school fees, or back to decile 2 if there are two children (number of children is also a choice in the vast majority of cases). It's only in decile 10 that the choice becomes easy enough to not represent any significant sacrifice - even in decile 9 there is going to be some reduction in expenditure elsewhere, but the choice is there for a lot more families than would like to admit it.

We live in a fairly grotty area, in an ex council house, with uk-only holidays and an oldish car. Our normal living expenditure would make most guess we had a household income around decile 5 ie about average. However we actually early a bit more than this and have been putting all the spare into savings. When the time comes we will be able to afford private school, taking about 60% of the cost from our earnings and the rest from our savings.

I am sure the parents of classmates at the current (state) primary will say "we could never have afforded that" but more than half of them live in much posher larger houses in nicer areas than us and are therefore spending at least £500 a month more on housing costs than us, plus regularly post on Facebook from their lovely holidays that must cost many thousands so yes they have made choices and I won't be ashamed of making a different choice myself.

Ah yes. The myth of the bursary.

There are very few full bursaries. Most are partial and still involve considerable expenditure. And children who get them are not usually the sort of underprivileged children who would benefit most from private education. It’s a paradox that the children who would get must from a private education are the children least likely to get one.

Over half of bursaries involve parents paying over 50 percent of the fees. Only 7 percent of pupils get any type of help and only 1 percent get a full ride.

Making it out to be achievable by just changing spending habits is a ridiculous bit of one upmanship and not based in reality.

To the majority of parents its not a choice.

Yes you are right, there are very few full bursaries, but those eho get them at ds school are from very deprived backgrounds who would not ever have the chance to go. We have a tiny partial one probably as a sweetener to get ds who is very successful in his sport.

You would be suprised at the amount of bursaries that go to students who have a sibling already at the school too.

“ but those eho get them at ds school are from very deprived backgrounds who would not ever have the chance to go”

When you say deprived, do you mean disadvantaged or just poor? They are very different things!

Without being too outing they are for disadvantaged and or poor eg i know of two boys from london estates single parent families not sure of others

They are a special type of full bursary with a name and aimed at kids whose lives would be transformed by the school (their words not mine)

Not a myth. DH had a 100% bursary at a school that now charges £30k a year. Such funding does still exist at many schools. Yes some schools focus all their bursary funds on enabling families on middle incomes to stretch themselves - making the choice more feasible for a wider range of people - finding £7.5k a year instead of £15k is obviously still a stretch but ask yourself if there are any families surviving on £7.5k less than you and tbh 80% of the population can answer yes to that.

It is an obvious no-brainer that a system that has capacity for 7% of the children in the country cannot and will not make itself available to 100% of the population. I'm only saything that a lot more people could try and see if they can do it than actually bother. Many many people who claim they could never afford it actually could do if accessing a higher tier of education was their first priority. Not criticising, other choices are valid, and obviously some people think it's a matter of principle not to give their children an advantage that isn't available to all but that too is a choice.

You can’t abolish them . The rich will find a loophole . They always do .

I’m in NI , there’s only one fully independent school here . We still have grammar schools which the lower and middle classes seem to be happy with as long as their children get a place. Children regardless of financial situation, who are clever can access a grammar school education.

We still have some families who don’t think the free grammar school education is good enough for their children. They will be educated at the local primary before they head off to England or Scotland to board . I’m assuming they don’t want them to have an NI accent and they want them to mix with a “ higher “ class of people.

Brains can’t be bought but privilege is there for the buying . Has always been thus .

Debfronut

Because people who want to abolish independent/private schools believe it is not a choice because it is not a choice open to all parents.

I assume most would also not want choice in areas such as health. Though surely a similar argument could be made re housing- why should seem people be able to buy large homes/in better areas when others have to settle for what they can afford?

Many who believe in abolition of independent schools would exclude those schools which they approve of- e.g. independent schools specialising in SEN. Personally, I think that's a fallacy though- if they follow through on their argument to it's fullest extent they should also believe that fact that only SOME parents get to choose the school they believe to be the best options for their children who have SEN is equally as bad, but it doesn't seem to hold true for lots. I can't work out why it is ok that some parents can make the choice that suits their children with SEN because they can afford the fees when other parents can't, but there we go.

Personally, I think it would be better to improve funding of state sector so that sending you child to private schools has less of a draw.

My DC attend independent prep. We made that choice because local state option (singular, only option) was poor. The idea that I, and other parents, could swoop in and turn that school around is as farcical as it is patronising to current parents- I know parents whose children go to this school (or have gone and since moved). Most were what I would describe as motivated and involved parents. The school still isn't great.

Every study into grammar schools shows that socio economics not ability is the main determinant of admission.

Utter drivel written above about most parents being able to afford it, if only they made different choices shows the utter ignorance and the self congratulatory nature of the poster.

It is not a choice most parents could make.

I have some friends that have gone down private route, whilst I don't think they regret it, they mostly live off baked beans. I think private education must save the country a fortune.

Also the parents I know who have gone down private route, are not the ones with the brightest children. They are the ones with the children who have struggled in the state system.

I think we should focus on state system and how it can be improved. This obsession with some parents paying for private education is wasted energy.

They are a special type of full bursary with a name and aimed at kids whose lives would be transformed by the school (their words not mine)“
That’s brilliant. But rare!

It doesn't save the country a fortune.

Look at the charitable status issue mentioned up thread and the money lost by the state this way plus the 3.5 billion in VST exemption.

Sion- grammar schools in England perhaps . In NI they can get a place if they get a high enough result in their AQE/GL.
I have no doubt that the socio economic background of the child plays a part too.However ,if a child is able and the parent is behind them then a grammar school education is easily within their reach .

Social mobility is much easier in NI than in the Uk in my opinion .