Is acupuncture woo?

[SmallHope]

I really want to try something to help with my fertility and mental health.

I eat a very healthy diet, I practice a bit of yoga and mindfulness, I exercise a lot, and I've finished a 3-month course of CBT so I'm doing everything I possibly can but I'm still struggling with low mood and awful periods due to endometriosis.

I'm very unwoo, but has acupuncture helped anyone and is it worth a try?

Sorry - this is.

It worked for me - much like a CBT or counselling session. It relaxed me, it made me think about looking at things differently and it also cleared up a really weird horrible stingy rash I'd had. My Uncle, a consultant dermatologist, recommended his colleague.

I don't care if it is clinically proven. I also think it's arrogant to disbelieve 5000 years of Chinese medicine/history. Clearly things have moved on however it doesn't mean nothing ever worked.

IME GPs use placebos every time they say “I know that some of my patients have tried Vitamin C/cold baths/breathing exercises/Rescue Remedy for this condition and they say it really works for them, so that might be something you’d like to try”. And good on them say I. If they can harness the very real power of (harmless, cheap) placebos without compromising their ethical principles then that’s a win.

OTOH the GP who told me “I know that they say that antibiotics don’t work for colds but in my experience they do make patients get better faster” should have been struck off.

I know this isn't what you're asking but you say you're interested in science so thought I'd throw this in. You say you exercise a lot. Now a lot may of course be subjective. But intense exercise can affect hormone levels, for example elevate cortisol. You say you eat a healthy diet, but is this diet low in fat? This can also disrupt hormones. So maybe something to look into would be to dial down the exercise a little and maybe increase your fats.

Almost two years of infertility.
GPS told me to "relax" "consider going part time for a bit" and that a 78 day cycle "isn't that abnormal".
Had acupuncture. Got pregnant first full cycle (started post ovulation).

Don't care if it's a placebo. I have my DD now. . And yes, if I struggle to get DC2 then I'll be going back.

I thought it was woo, until I tried it.
I suffer from back pain due to an old injury. I was desperate enough to try anything.
It was as though someone had flicked the pain switch to off. It lasted a while too.
I had it again a few years later however and it didn't work at all.

This from the includes meta analysis of 3000 trials.

@BertrandRussell

As I said, it's fine if you don't believe in it, not a problem.

Although earlier on you said you felt it worked on the placebo effect.

Whatever way you think it works - it does work for the majority of people that I have observed.

@BertrandRussell

For every piece of research you post that says it doesn't work I have one which says it does - again as I have said before, usually low quality due to issues of blinding, which is why the pieces you post do not have the evidence to show efficacy - they can't include low quality trials.

As I said, it's fine if you don't believe in it, not a problem.

Although earlier on you said you felt it worked on the placebo effect.

Whatever way you think it works - it does work for the majority of people that I have observed.

I hope you find something which gives you as much pleasure, hope and wellbeing as acupuncture does for so many people.

“I hope you find something which gives you as much pleasure, hope and wellbeing as acupuncture does for so many people.”

“Hope” is the key word here.

I think you are wasting your breath here, BertrandRussell.

You can prove anything with facts, eh?

If it is the placebo effect, and that works for people, then fantastic.

However, I could come round and rub Birds Angel Delight into your belly button. That would have the same effect, and would cost half the price.

This does not make the topical application of Birds Angel Delight to the midriff a bona fide medical treatment. It is (figuratively, though not as far as I know, literally) snake oil.

That would be an absolute waste of angel delight and I'm horrified at the sugggestion (also, mine always has maltesers in it so that just wouldn't work)

I'd love that Dancing Bear - when are you free?

I don't think @BertrandRussell is wasting their breath at all - these kinds of discussions are really important.

Not a day goes by when I look at what I'm doing and think WTAF?? It shouldn't work but i see it working every day - which is what keeps me doing it.

It's really important for those in both sides of the argument to question their beliefs.

“It's really important for those in both sides of the argument to question their beliefs.”

I absolutely agree. But facts are not beliefs. It’s not that acupuncture works but we don’t know how. It demonstrably does not work in any way which is specific to accupuncture. It is an effective placebo.If the practitioner is kind and gentle and empathetic the process can make people feel better. If the practitioner has time to listen, as GPs just don’t, that will
make people feel better. Actively booking an appointment for something makes people feel they are taking control of their health and that makes them feel better. All of these things are good things. However, telling people anti scientific nonsense is bad for people and bad for society.

I tried for fertility but think I had more success taking Angus castus

@BertrandRussell

As I've already said there is lots of research with incredibly positive results. The problem lies in the quality of the trial which is affected by the blinding problem.

So for me - and many others - there are 'facts'

As for the mechanism - that's what makes me say WTF?! This shouldn't work. But it does.

I'm sure it's been mentioned before but I don't think we actually "know" why general anaesthetics work... certainly when DH studied them 15 odd years ago we didn't...

No one thinks of Halothane and Isoflorane as woo!

There's so much we don't know about the human nervous system.

I don't know about acupuncture but I tried reflexology for fertility and I caught the month after. As people said it may be the placebo effect but as long a sit works who cares. Good luck xx

“As I've already said there is lots of research with incredibly positive results. The problem lies in the quality of the trial which is affected by the blinding problem“

If you read the links I offered, you will see that the better the blinding process (and things like retractible needles and false accucpuncture points are being used) the less objectively effective the procedure becomes.

And I repeat, it’s not that it works and we don’t know how. it doesn’t work except as placebo.

@BertrandRussell I love your work on the Feminist board but I don't think you're being particularly helpful or useful here.

We have a lovely very old pony that we keep in a field near a special school. Some of the kids spend time with her, and in many cases stroking her helps them relax and their behaviour often improves for a while. She doesn’t have therapeutic powers. She’s warm and gentle and she feels nice. The children are trusted to be with her and brush her and that makes them feel good. They have quiet one to one time with her and a trusted adult.

I could call this equitherapy and charge 50 quid a session. And I could provide a hundred case studies proving that it works.

And I forgot- she always whickers in their hair. They love that!

It’s fine to not believe in it

It’s not fine to be a droning sarcastic arsehole about it