Is acupuncture woo?

[SmallHope]

I really want to try something to help with my fertility and mental health.

I eat a very healthy diet, I practice a bit of yoga and mindfulness, I exercise a lot, and I've finished a 3-month course of CBT so I'm doing everything I possibly can but I'm still struggling with low mood and awful periods due to endometriosis.

I'm very unwoo, but has acupuncture helped anyone and is it worth a try?

@Ostrichrunning

Thank you. I found the 2016 guidelines after I posted. I see the 'Currently, NICE only recommends considering acupuncture as a treatment option for:

chronic tension-type headaches
migraines'
on the NHS website
www.nhs.uk/conditions/acupuncture/

but haven't spent the time looking at the NICE/NIHCE primary source.

As I said, I've no horses in this race.

@bertrandrussell,

'Because it objectively works most of the time' ?

Placebo is really interesting in itself; the ability to feel better/heal/improve because you think a treatment is working is fascinating.

I had it. I am very un-woo (and hate needles). Thought I would hate it but it was so relaxing and loved it. Had two sessions then fell pregnant. The practitioner is highly qualified and specialised in fertility. If you happen to be in South Yorks PM me and I will send the details.

@greenstargazer, wouldn't be acuherb would it? One of my acquaintances said the same thing?

@smallhope - placebo is very interesting. I recall one study (can't find it now) of a selected group with back injuries with relatively uncontrolled pain on pretty much the strongest combination of painkillers (opioid and neuro). Placebo delivered in context (conditioning statements of 'experimental', 'expensive', 'highly effective in previous studies', I think administered in a university research lab environment) led to temporary effects of 'most effective pain relief ever', temporarily coming off existing (clinically 'strongest') pain relief. Not sure how they managed the patient group at the end of the study and I'd like to have see the discussions of the ethics committee.

Most people think they're rational though most pain mechanisms are mediated through the brain so possibly not a surprise.

Actually, NICE guidelines on treatment for lower back pain and sciatica were updated in 2016; they now state that acupuncture should NOT be used - see 1.2.8

Thank you! So pleased but not surprised, as the "evidence" was so poor. It's a real shame the NHS legitimised this crap even temporarily but at least they've seen sense.

As a very almost qualified acupuncturist I find those people repeatedly shouting 'it doesn't work!'
as frustrating as I find those who say 'it cures cancer!'.

I can't go on repeating the same thing over and over again - I've linked to a couple of good studies as well as given a rationale as to why Chinese medicine doesn't fit a western medical research model.

I can say from experience of observation that I've seen lots of people vastly improve their MYMOP scores following acupuncture. I've seen people with crippling arthritis able to start work again. I've seen people have their OCD cured. Ive seen people who have come off warfarin. I have never seen a terminal illness been cured but I have seen people eased through the process.

If you don't believe it doesn't work, that's totally up to you. But it does.

You can't say a blanket 'it doesn't work' when it does for some people. It's also been going for centuries more than western medicine. I'm not woo, I'm as skeptical as they come, but I'm also a big advocate of procedures that help prevent dependency on drugs. Because of time pressures, so many GPs throw drugs at a problem so we now believe that drugs are the only answer - they're not. They also are frequently ineffective, and/or come with horrendous side effects. For example my DH, who himself works in medicine, was recently hospitalised when a drug he was prescribed attacked his central nervous system. Holistic treatments are significantly helping his recovery.

I did acupuncture on the recommendation of a friend who is a physio. She'd had 9 miscarriages, had the acupuncture then had 3 successful pregnancies. I'd had 3 miscarriages, had acupuncture and I'm into a healthy 2nd trimester. I didn't go into it as a believer, but I tried to be open minded. I didn't find it particularly relaxing or anything, no more than getting a haircut, but I did get pregnant and have stayed pregnant.

So it can work. And as a pp said, individualised treatment doesn't lend itself to studies. Support it or don't, but you can't say it works for no one.

@chocolatebumby

The thing is, lots of studies show lots of things 'work' until bigger, better-designed studies come along and, a lot of the time, disprove that the thing in question has any impact. This is what has happened re: acupuncture.

Your 'good studies' obviously aren't good enough; or the Cochrane reviews would have drawn different conclusions. Your anecdotal experiences unfortunately don't amount to any kind of evidence.

Western medicine isn't perfect. But the 'western medical research model' is the best means we have of ascertaining what is and what isn't effective treatment. It's how we've found all our important treatments and cures. I can't abide with this pitching eastern or Chinese treatments against these methods - there's nothing biased or Western-centric about the standards of good research; that's the very point - the way they eliminate anything like bias to help us reach actual knowledge about what works and why.

Sorry, but it's true.

Can anyone explain why it doesn’t work when tested under proper scientific conditions?

“Because of time pressures, so many GPs throw drugs at a problem so we now believe that drugs are the only answer - they're not. They also are frequently ineffective, and/or come with horrendous side effects.”
Of course. This isn’t an argument for acupuncture though!

Yoga and mindfullness is considered woo and works why would you be concerned about acupuncture.

So when drugs/western medicine has failed, and treatments like acupuncture might work, you'd rather say do nothing and accept your fate than even try it? I find that bizarre.

@chocolatebumby how does it work?

Yoga and mindfullness is considered woo and works why would you be concerned about acupuncture.

No, they're not!

to anyone who thinks it's chill to call eastern medicine 'woo'.

Personally I'd give it a go. They have it on the NHS in my area.

“So when drugs/western medicine has failed, and treatments like acupuncture might work, you'd rather say do nothing and accept your fate than even try it? I find that bizarre.”

What fate am I accepting?

Ps I should add that I have personal experience with SSRIs and (once they found the right one for me) they have massively improved my quality of life!

There is no 'eastern medicine', there is no 'western medicine'. There are treatments that have been tested and shown to work with reference to a relevant control (some western in origin and some eastern), and there are treatments that have been shown to give no benefit over a relevant control (some western in origin and some eastern).

The origin of the original therapeutic premise is irrelevant.

The demonstrated efficacy of the the therapeutic treatment is relevant.

If you ever want to know the level of evidence for a given treatment, I would simply type the treatment name and the word wikipedia into the search bar.

This will provide you with ample reading on the topic and enable you to make an informed decision.

In the case of acupuncture you will discover that in comparison to a reasonable control protocol (like using non-piercing needles, or sticking needles in random places) there is no benefit of acupuncture.

If however you feel getting stuck with some needles will cheer you up in the same way getting your nails done might....then go for it. Though I'm pretty sure the nails done option is cheaper.

Yoga and mindfullness is considered woo and works why would you be concerned about acupuncture

I suppose because I understand completely how yoga and mindfulness work, so they are not at all woo. Yoga gently exercises the body which tones and builds strength, and mindfulness helps focus the mind and clear away negative thought patterns.

Acupuncture is based on the flow of energy through the body (Qi, I think?) and while I believe all the personal anecdotal evidences of personal stories, it still unfortunately has little to no robust scientific evidence to back up its theory or method - it seems to be a personal belief rather than a proven factual base, therefore in the realm of woo, akin to Reiki or Crystal Healing.

But I do apologise profusely if anyone has taken offence to my term of 'woo' - especially where it has helped those individuals or it is a chosen profession, I mean no disrespect at all.

I thought it was a load of rubbish till i had it. I don't do woo at all.

Lower back pain so bad i couldn't sit or lie down (muscular). In desperation after walking about all night i went to an acupuncturist. Had to be undressed by DH and helped onto the table.

An hour later i got off and got dressed by myself. I gauged the pain had been about halved.

Good enough evidence for me

My physio uses intramuscular needle stimulation as part of treatment. V common here (Canada)

shake what an amusing anecdote. I think the part where you paid money to undergo a procedure you were sure was rubbish, is the bit that makes you....a less reliable...witness.

It didn’t work for our horse and the vet was very optimistic - I assume that the horse shared my opinion .

Its genuinely not useful to try to categorise things into 'woo' and 'not woo'.

Everything that has evidence, started off as something for which there wasn't evidence. Everything that has been found effective is only effective against certain things.

Yoga is effective...because its exercise...

Mindfulness has been found to be effective in certain limited ways against certain mental disorders....and not for others.

SSRIs have been found to be effective in certain limited ways against certain mental disorders also.

Acupuncture has been tested and not found to be effective in comparison to controls.

Maybe we will one day narrow things down and down until we find something that IS influenced by the exact placement of a needle. Then it would be reasonable to get acupuncture for that one thing....it won't validate all the pseudoscience or any of the other proposed uses...but it won't be entirely useless either....until then there is no evidence its useful.

“But I do apologise profusely if anyone has taken offence to my term of 'woo' - especially where it has helped those individuals or it is a chosen profession, I mean no disrespect at all.”
I honestly don’t see why you need to apologise. I don’t personally use the word woo. But it is a system of treatment which has been thoroughly tested on many occasions and found not to work. I see no reason why you should apologise for saying so.

*M3lon

I was desperate and in agony. I'd have tried anything. Just telling it how it happened