Is acupuncture woo?

[SmallHope]

I really want to try something to help with my fertility and mental health.

I eat a very healthy diet, I practice a bit of yoga and mindfulness, I exercise a lot, and I've finished a 3-month course of CBT so I'm doing everything I possibly can but I'm still struggling with low mood and awful periods due to endometriosis.

I'm very unwoo, but has acupuncture helped anyone and is it worth a try?

I thought it was utter rubbish - until our cat broke his hip badly with nerve damage and lost all sensation in his foot as a result. He was dragging his lower limb around and they were discussing amputation until one of the vets at the practice who was a qualified acupuncturist suggested we give acupuncture a shot. I resisted the temptation to laugh in her face and reasoned we may as well give it a go since all physio has failed. Within an hour after the first session cat was able to lift his leg properly and after three sessions he was back with almost full use of it. I don’t know how it works, and this is one instance where I can’t use the placebo effect as an explanation.

There's quite a bit of evidence that it works - some of the 'placebo' studies involved putting needles in slightly the wrong place, because you can't exactly use fake needles. Certainly some studies showing effects on brain waves in chronic pain, I've not really looked beyond that point.

Given a lot of modern medicines are based on ancient herbal medicines (quinine and aspirin for starters) I think it suffers from perception issues because most of the techniques have Chinese names.

Homeopathy is bs though.

There's a big difference between a practitioner who's done a quick course and someone who's done a degree in Chinese medicine.

I went to an acupuncturist in January for fertility. He was western but had 2 degrees and came highly recommended. I am neither spiritual nor a 'believer' in alternatives. However I am now 24 weeks pg so can't argue with the result.

You can never say for certain it was the acupuncture, but the mind and body are much more complex and unexplained than western science would suggest, so who can say for sure?

It's not "woo and quackery", and the acupuncturist doesn't need to be Chinese to be genuine

Look on the British Acupuncturist Council website, everyone registered on there will be trained to degree level, taking 3-5 years to get their qualification.

@littleandoften
@mrsmarymooface

I don't think Littleandoften was saying you need to be chinese. She was saying you need to see someone who has done a degree in Chinese medicine.

I think you're both arguing the same point!

There are western medical docs and nurses who have done short courses in 'Western Medical Acupuncture'. It's fine, it probably kinda works but I doubt would have anything near the effect of seeing a real acupuncturist.

There are physios and other practitioners who use 'dry needling' and 'trigger pointing'. This is fine for musculoskeletal stuff but again, I would still recommend seeing a 'proper' acupuncturist.

Then there are the true 'pros' those who have done a 3 year licentiate or degree in acupuncture.

There are two main types - Traditional Chinese Medicine and 5 Element acupuncture. 5 Element is more individualised and I prefer it, but I'm biased as that's what I'm studying.

Check out any acupuncturist you want to see here Quick check acupuncturist accreditation

I was thinking about looking into acupuncture (for other health reasons) as I was listening to a podcast the other day about how widespread its use was in the US military:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5799885/

It made me wonder, but haven't got round to doing any proper research on it yet.

I got pregnant the month after I started doing it, after almost a year of ttc.

No real idea if it made a difference, but I found it good for stress generally.

People are very dismissive of non western medicine, which I think is quite blinkered.

The NHS doesn't think its woo and quackery....
For PAIN only which is where the evidence is.

It is woo and quackery for other things.

SmallHope Here are a few systematic reviews:
www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.a3115
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304395999003048
www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2008.0356

Note that the poorer quality the study is, the more likely it is to show positive effects from acupuncture. Also note there is a huge amount of money to be made by quacks claiming their quackery isn't quackery. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

drspouse but it does say 'not enough evidence yet' the proper research hasn't been conclusive. Not that a load of studies have been done and all found it's a load of shit.

And even if it is the placebo effect, although how just thinking my airways could magically be not inflamed would make them return to normal is beyond me, so what? If people are using it alongside other treatments, and are happy to spend the money to make themselves feel better then why not? The same as people spend money on their hair or manicures for self care, or have a day at a spa. There are no scientifically proven benefits to either of those things, but if you are depressed or anxious, having a day at a spa, going to a yoga class or even a self care day at home can do wonders alongside traditional treatments.

After ttc for 2 years and having 2 losses I tried acupuncture for fertility/ mh/ plus chronic pain. Went to someone highly recommended/ experienced and I stuck with it for about 6 months.

I found weekly treatments helped with pain and general anxiety and that I slept better. Tried to space apps out due to cost and lost those benefits.

As time went on she was less interested in doing acupuncture and tried to just give me herbs/ started telling me I shouldn't ttc until I was stronger/ more balanced. It cost me a fortune and I ended up feeling worse about myself and my 'failings'.

I would recommend it for pain but it didn't help me otherwise, though perhaps my expectations were too high.

Western medicine completely divorces the mind from the body. Eastern medicine treats holistically. What I find fascinating is how the Eastern approach has crept more and more into the western sphere in recent times.

And no, of course you don't have to be Chinese! 😂

@drspouse

Have you looked at the reviews I posted with regards to fertility?

Just because the NHS don't recommend it, doesn't mean there's not evidence to support it. I can't get T3 for my thyroid, it works - the NHS just can't afford it.

The research generally isn't conclusive in acupuncture trials - as I explained previously, you CANNOT blind an acupuncture trial! (anyone fancy a blindfolded acupuncturist? Or one who has never learnt where the points are?) Therefore the trials are deemed 'low quality' and 'not enough evidence yet'.

It's medicine from a totally different culture - it's hard to measure it against Western medicine.

Used it on a painful post-dislocated shoulder and it helped massively.

Thanks everyone, I'll read all the links given and do a little more research. Much appreciated!

Note that the poorer quality the study is, the more likely it is to show positive effects from acupuncture. Interesting there on acupuncture for pain - I thought that was fairly well established but it seems not.

@chocolatebumby that NHS article is from 10 years ago and isn't exactly optimistic. Have there been any RCTs since then?

Western medicine completely divorces the mind from the body.
Erm no it doesn't
CBT for chronic fatigue
CBT for insomnia
Stress as a cause of a huge number of bodily ailments.
All very well established.

@smallhope

I really admire you for doing your research. It was 'doing my research' which ended up with me actually becoming an acupuncturist - I was so convinced by it and by the results that I got personally.

So, be careful, you might end up on an expensive degree course .

Also - just to say that the World Health Organisation do recommend acupuncture for depression, so in terms of mental health, it's proven enough for them. There is some solid research which shows that it is more effective than most SSRIs which is what I think they base their recommendations on. I presume it is more expensive which is why the NHS don't yet recommend it. Personally I would ALWAYS recommend it alongside medication though - if it then works, the GP can look at ways to wean you off.

Best of luck with it.

Does it matter OP? It's no comment on the type of person you are if you seek an 'alternative' therapy. If you think the process might make you feel better physically or vitally, mentally, then those are strong grounds. It's regarded as mostly safe and as with anything some people will report that it was beneficial and some will not- this is exactly the same for traditional medical treatments and medication so whether its 'woo' or not is semantics really.

Regarding acupuncture specifically, the NHS use it, I have attended a clinic of theirs and had several sessions however I found it a fairly painful and uncomfortable experience really. It did on occasion relax the muscles in the problem are a bit but had no real effect on the issue overall and I was advised by the consultant that it just does not work for some patients, you need to have it regularly on an ongoing basis (they have you come in every two weeks). I spoke to several patients there that felt it had turned a corner for them or offered pain relief and relaxation- just not for me unfortunately which was a shame.

With regards to the use of it for fertility I doubt you will find any concrete data to support that. In any case 'data' can be found for any bias should you seek it out hard enough I'm sure. It's better just to make your own decisions as to what you want to try and weigh up whether going might be a positive for you. Whether it works or not! Taking control of your mental health and seeking out a therapy and 'doing something' for you that is likely to be safe, may provide tangible or placebo benefits is surely something you may as well do if you fancy it so long as it's affordable. People don't make this amount of fuss about going to get a massage.

So, be careful, you might end up on an expensive degree course

Funnily enough I am looking for a change in career! So you never know, my mind is very much open.

I really want to avoid the SSRI medication path and work with my body/mind naturally as I can. I'm frustrated that my mental health isn't as good as my physical, despite all the advice that says one will lead to the other. I really feel something is out of whack, if that makes sense.

Thanks again!

I worked in an NHS pain clinic and the consultant anaesthetists carried out acupuncture on patients for chronic pain, so definitely not woo

@drspouse
Yep, there was one other more recent one - again just with IVF (so the toughest cases) which showed a very small indicator that it worked. Again though - this used standardised treatment as opposed to individualised (I would have expected a far better result if points were individualised). Also it compared acupuncture to sham acupuncture - so there was a placebo effect for the 'control' group. For a trial to be really valid, for me it needs to be 'individualised' acupuncture vs no acupuncture. But then that isn't a 'blind trial'.

You start to see here some of the problems with quantifying a Chinese medicine within a Western medicine research paradigm...

Just on another note - you're totally right that Western medicine doesn't totally divorce mind and body but Eastern medicine goes much further. The Chinese see that there are both external and internal causes of disease - that our bodies response to emotions can cause illness. The Chinese then deal with this, the root cause, rather than just the physical symptoms of the illness (which they do also deal with!).

Because of this I would ALWAYS recommend acupuncture alongside conventional medicine. That way you get the best of both worlds!

The reason their is little 'proper research' (in this context meaning randomised controlled trials) into acupuncture is that acupuncture treatments are uniquely tailored to each patient (rather than all patients been given the same drug/treatment) This makes it impossible to do randomised controlled trials as each patient is the variable, if that makes sense. I'm an academic and this is my area of research. Acupuncture can be hugely effective but it seems 'woo' to us as in the West we have this mad idea that parts of the body and mind aren't all connected but are just a collection of individual separate parts

@chocolatebumby ha I just read your post after I posted, we're saying the same thing!

@Springfern

Hey - the more the merrier!

Now I want to know more about your research!

I have acupuncture every 8 weeks and have done for about 6 years.

Have it for pain management but it also helps with my stress levels.

Have recommended several friends to her for fertility issues, both of whom became pregnant.