AIBU for thinking the DfE have got this one wrong?

[herculepoirot2]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7242631/Maths-spelling-tests-trainee-teachers-scrapped-attempt-boost-staff-numbers.html

Trainee teachers hated these tests, because they meant they could invest in a PGCE or on-the-job teacher training route, but be asked to leave because of limitations in their ability to spell or do basic calculations.

Then the Government cancelled the cap on the number of times you could take the test before being disqualified from teaching, because it was affecting recruitment numbers. Now the Government are abolishing the test altogether, because of the several thousands of potential teachers who have failed to qualify every year as a result of failing them.

Aren’t they mopping the decks on the Titanic? If teaching has become so undesirable as a profession that they can only plug the gap by recruiting people who struggle to spell twenty middle-order words, or to calculate a simple percentage value given pen and paper, shouldn’t they be dealing with the very obvious workload and behaviour issues affecting the numbers of people applying to teacher training, rather than lowering the standard of education required to do it?

I have a small child. Although I sympathise with those colleagues who have signed up to teacher training and had to leave because they couldn’t pass these tests, some of whom have been absolutely lovely, I do not want my child taught by someone whose ability to spell and do simple maths has never been tested in any robust way.

AIBU?

Are you joking?
Even ks2 problem solving questions require students to use literacy skills to work out what maths they need to use.

No, I’m not. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be able to read. However, I don’t think - at secondary - that the emphasis needs to be quite so firmly on their ability to write.

@herculepoirot2 oh my god... it took me a second to figure out what you were on about but now I'm laughing and ashamed. It looks like I'M the idiot, not the teachers!

PalJoey

Oh no, it was funny! 😂

Re the leaving certificate ...

I've just been googling. The qual exam site shows it's not actually quite the same as an a level though. Each subject is roughly two thirds equivalent to an English a level. So higher than a GCSE but not the same as doing A level English and Maths in the UK. I assume you also do more than 3 (or occasionally 4) subjects as a result then, which would answer my question re how people manage to study a range of subjects rather than only having one extra choice.

www.qualifax.ie/menu_material/Qualifications/Comparison%20with%20UK%20awards%20141206.htm

well, I am primary teacher 9from th edays before you needed to do this test) and I now tutor kids for the 11+, so I am teaching the same as the top group in year 6.

Every single thing on those tests is part of what I teach the kids. They need to be able to do all of it.
The English test is a bit shocking to be honest, if you can't see which of the snetences fits the gap, and can't punctuate that passage, then you should not be in a classroom in a primary school.

There are many tales on mn of teachers mis-marking or sending home letters full of mistakes. It is laughable to think that spell and grammar checks pick them up, they don't!

and don't get me started on all the teachers who say, "Is everyone sat down?" The present progressive tense is taught for SATS, but not used with the verb to sit any more in speech as far as I can see.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect this of teachers.

@Aragog we do at least 6

Aragog You need to do higher level Irish and get an honour in it, and then English, Maths, and three other subjects in Leaving Cert. You need to have a specified minimum number of points in the Leaving Cert. exam, and the more higher level subjects you chose, the better your prospects of getting those points. The exact number of points vary very slightly from year to year, but it’s high, to get a place in college to do a B.Ed degree. Demand for places on the B.Ed is very high. Permanent jobs in Irish schools aren’t very plentiful though, because people don’t leave their permanent posts unless they retire, get a principalship in another school or need to resign as they are moving to live somewhere else too far to commute.

I'd fail the maths test not because I'm terrible at maths but because I can't do mental arithmetic at speed under pressure. My mind goes completely blank.

I have a 1st and 2 masters' degrees, and years of experience as a TA - which I know isn't the same as being a teacher, but it means I'm familiar with the school environment. I also did progress and attainment data for the children I worked with as a TA, so I'm fine with creating and analysing charts and spreadsheets.

I'm not looking to become a teacher, but if I did want to teach, those tests would be very offputting. I have to say YABU, although I completely understand the worries about teachers who lack basic skills. I'd support raising the GCSE requirement to a B (or the numerical equivalent).

Permanent jobs in Irish schools aren’t very plentiful though, because people don’t leave their permanent posts unless they retire, get a principalship in another school or need to resign as they are moving

Interesting that people aren’t leaving teaching in Ireland in droves like they are in England?!

Why isn’t Damien Hinds looking there for inspiration then?!

6 then

So yes, it's not the same qualification as an English style a level clearly.

If you tried to say that all degrees here in England required a levels in those subjects we'd have to have a massive change - students here currently only do 3 and sometimes 4.

My Irish colleague will have done the Irish leaving very but doesn't have the English equivalent of a full a level in English and maths.

I’d fail the maths test not because I'm terrible at maths but because I can't do mental arithmetic at speed under pressure. My mind goes completely blank.

But being able to stand in front of 35 year 6 children modelling mental maths strategies- with a TA at the back or member of SMT with a clipboard observing you with a clipboard is exactly why you need to be good!

Have you actually seen and gcse maths exam questions?!

Sorry that reply was to hercule 🙄

monkeysox

I’ve briefly seen them. Sorry, what was that regarding? Maths teachers and literacy requirements?

Oh the irony, so many typos in that post from me!

@Aragog 2/3 of an A Level is better than none. And with all due respect it’s not Ireland that is lowering its standards to try to entice more teachers to train!!

I know people who have passed the tests that still struggle anyways,especially in maths.

I can't imagine fully scrapping them. It would be unfair on the children and the teachers themselves. Having to mark and explain concepts that you ,yourself don't get is hard, not to mention being shown up by an 8 yo or having a book scrutiny where half your maths books have been marked/solved wrong.

I'm a TA and on paper a failure academically, but I've been teaching Math quite a few times because I not only understood the lesson ,but knew how to explain it.

It's unfair for the children as well to be taught the wrong thing,start from the wrong premise, copy the wrong spellings from the board,or be told their result/spelling is wrong when it actually isn't.

It's sad and frustrating that teacher have to wear so many hats nowadays and the workload is ridiculous, but we shouldn't forget that their main hat is actually teaching and they need the skills and knowledge to wear it.

I don't think requiring A levels is necessary (and A level English is mostly literature isn't it?)
I would certainly struggle to get A level maths, but I have a B at O level and can do the maths test no problem.

In the English system it just wouldn't be possible anyway, someone doing sciences can't also do maths and English, just too much work and not enough time

In the English system it just wouldn't be possible anyway, someone doing sciences can't also do maths and English, just too much work and not enough time

Exactly. Most of the time students in the UK system specialise quite narrowly after GCSE.

They need to raise salaries if they want higher calibre candidates. Someone with straight As at GCSE and a First Class degree has a huge number of options open to them. I'm a teacher - I had all A*s at GCSE, all As at A level, a 2:1 degree and a Distinction in my Masters. Most people I know think I made a terrible decision to be a teacher and many are even now, 7 years in to my teaching career, encouraging me to leave and do something better paid. I think this reflects general attitudes - better qualifications demand a better salary. Incidentally, I don't believe someone with straight As makes a better teacher than someone who struggles with spelling and maths at all, but I'm just pointing out why these standards are having to be lowered.

Don't mince your words, will you, PalJoey . I think that if the male domination of teaching had continued, there would still be issues with recruitment due to much wider choice of jobs and the low respect teachers in England are held in (on the whole). Of course, the latter may be a Res Lt of the feminisation of the profession too. I did an analysis of teacher pay once between the 1930s and now and female teachers are paid much better in real terms now, but male teacher, less (as there used to be different pay scales and a marriage bar for women).

Teacher recruitment is a red herring. As pointed out in OP's first post, teaching is the issue. Or rather, retention.

We train plenty of teachers and watch them scrabbling to get out once they start in a post. The number leaving in the five years after they qualify is high.

A result! Not what the algorithm predicted...

I am terrible at maths. Embarrassingly so. And even I managed to pass first time. I'm a little bit on the fence with regards to this. On the one hand, we are expected to impart knowledge of numeracy and literacy regardless of what subject you teach, and we do that a lot as tutors especially.
On the other hand, a lot of the numeracy stuff we simply don't use without computers to help us. Planning school trips, I would always use a calculator to make sure I got the numbers right; reading data, we use 4matrix which basically does it for you.

I think there is so much more going on that we need to look at. Schools are so desperate for cheap teachers, quality is going to be lost somewhere. Currently academies can hire unqualified teachers, teachers are teaching subjects they are not specialists in at secondary just because there is not enough staff (happens quite a lot with mfl and I've known teachers being told to teach bottom set maths despite not being maths teachers). Until the government deals with retention, scrapping the tests is just the tip of the iceberg, because they will have to find new ways of getting anybody in.

Youngandfree - it's more that under our current a level system to insist on English and Maths, when students only do 3 subjects, just wouldn't work.

If we had a different qualification where students did double the number if subjects, each at a slightly lower level, it would be possible. It we don't, so it's just not the same. That's all.

FWIW I don't think a BBB university entry is overly low anyway. That's the entry requirement for a primary education degree at almost all universities in England at the moment. I think we've seen a small number slightly higher at ABB and a handful lower at BBC.