AIBU for thinking the DfE have got this one wrong?

[herculepoirot2]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7242631/Maths-spelling-tests-trainee-teachers-scrapped-attempt-boost-staff-numbers.html

Trainee teachers hated these tests, because they meant they could invest in a PGCE or on-the-job teacher training route, but be asked to leave because of limitations in their ability to spell or do basic calculations.

Then the Government cancelled the cap on the number of times you could take the test before being disqualified from teaching, because it was affecting recruitment numbers. Now the Government are abolishing the test altogether, because of the several thousands of potential teachers who have failed to qualify every year as a result of failing them.

Aren’t they mopping the decks on the Titanic? If teaching has become so undesirable as a profession that they can only plug the gap by recruiting people who struggle to spell twenty middle-order words, or to calculate a simple percentage value given pen and paper, shouldn’t they be dealing with the very obvious workload and behaviour issues affecting the numbers of people applying to teacher training, rather than lowering the standard of education required to do it?

I have a small child. Although I sympathise with those colleagues who have signed up to teacher training and had to leave because they couldn’t pass these tests, some of whom have been absolutely lovely, I do not want my child taught by someone whose ability to spell and do simple maths has never been tested in any robust way.

AIBU?

@herculepoirot2 here in Ireland you cannot attend ANY university course (including teaching unless you pass maths and English a level equivalent (and you need more than a pass for teaching). I fear the Uk is dropping it’s standards way too far!!

Youngandfree

That’s good! I just don’t think it is genuinely necessary. I do think we should raise the standard, but A Level Maths simply isn’t needed.

This is a very interesting debate and there are a range of opinions. However, I will raise some questions that I have asked myself over the years.

First, if someone has dyslexia, dyscalculia or another specific learning difficulty which means that, even with the extra time and the non-audio spelling provision, s/he cannot pass the skills test, should they reconsider their career as a teacher? Similarly, if English is not an individual's first language, should the fact that s/he cannot quite pass the literacy test determine that s/he should not teach in UK schools?

Should passing the test be a prerequisite to entering a PGCE programme, or should individuals be given the option to study for the tests alongside their PGCEs?

There are a large number of companies who offer tuition and resources to help students pass these tests. The services can be expensive. If the government wants people to pass the tests, should they not invest in free training or brush up services and resources that can help individuals prepare for the tests? The DfE website offers a very limited and arguably outdated set of resources.

Having said that, the Irish teachers I’ve worked with have been great.

I trained to be a teacher is my late twenties.

in

I'll blame baby brain and report-writing fatigue for my typos!!

@Aragog all Irish primary school teachers will have a level equivalent maths and English!! In fact Anyone who attends university (except perhaps a mature student) will have to pass (a level) maths and English! It’s not too much to ask at all!

First, if someone has dyslexia, dyscalculia or another specific learning difficulty which means that, even with the extra time and the non-audio spelling provision, s/he cannot pass the skills test, should they reconsider their career as a teacher?

I hate to say it, but yes. Children have a right to be taught by people with certain skills and abilities. Nobody suggests a person with a processing disorder which renders them unable to remember the names and formulations of drugs should be able to prescribe them.

Hell's bells - it is embarrassingly easy, isn't it?

Any teacher who can't cope with that would have a problem qualifying I would have thought.

Aptitude tests are common in many industries including civil service, med school, grad programs...

Cutting these masks the terrible recruitment and retention crisis we have in teaching

Any teacher who can't cope with that would have a problem qualifying I would have thought.

Doubtful. Where do you believe it would present a hurdle, other than in the test?

ere in Ireland you cannot attend ANY university course (including teaching unless you pass maths and English a level equivalent (and you need more than a pass for teaching). I fear the Uk is dropping it’s standards way too far!!

How many a levels do people take? In England it's usually only 3. So if everyone is taking English and maths, they only get to choose one other subject along side them? Seems like a very narrow choice allowed.

Also who doesn’t have spell check?

Spelling is only part of it - and anyway spellcheck doesn't always sort out the grammar. I work for a professional services company and the standard of written english in reports is some instances is mind boggling poor.

Grammar including the use of capitals, commas and apostrophes being poor to non-existent. This from people with a university education.

How can people learn a second language without a good grasp of grammar?

Just for the record, I put myself in this category

@Youngandfree well that's not true. I have 9 Irish teaching friends who trained in Ireland and not one of them has an A level or equivalent in English or maths.

Saying, “Well, there’s always spell check” is like saying, “Well, there’s always a calculator.” We are not meant to be teaching children to get machines to think for them.

Personally I don't agree you should need an a level in English and maths for all degrees, let alone teaching too.

I don't really know any teachers who would have even been able to become one on that basis as everyone I work with have a much more diverse set of subjects.

And how does it work for subjects such as medicine who wants lots of sciences, so no room for adding in English too?

Or are the a levels in Ireland different to the ones here, and you do more subjects each with a little less content than the ones in England?

Always use “preview” function, before pressing “post” option, youngandfree, or they’ll be doubting the standard of education in Ireland!
But yes, you need high points in the Leaving Cert to gain entry to the B.Ed degree, and there’s no difficulty with attracting students to do that degree, despite the fact that you then spend a few years trying to get a permanent post in a school. (Hence, many of our graduates go to teach in England for a few years...)

There are clearly low expectations and sexism at play here. You can be damn sure if there hadn't been a couple of world wars to take all the young men away so that teaching had remained a largely male profession for longer, that we wouldn't be sitting here arguing about whether it's fair for potential teachers to prove they can spell simple words and do basic mental arithmetic. It would be a given - you don't give trainee doctors these sorts of tests because the profession is competitive, challenging, and well-paid so the selection process is built in. Unlike teaching, which people see as a job for women who want an easy life with time off for school holidays and who tend to view as slightly better-paid childminding.

The problem is, there ARE too many idiots who go into teaching and these tests have been implemented by other idiots as an idiotic way to try to reduce the number of idiots. Making it easier to become a teacher isn't going to solve the education crisis. Only a LOT of money, spent in the right way, and a complete rethink of teaching as a profession that's more 'doctor' and less 'hairdresser' (in terms of barriers to entry, rigorousness of training, and pay) is going to help. However, I would be less surprised to see genetically modified talking rabbits teaching our children, at this point. Mine learn far more from Saturday language classes, travel, extracurricular art and sport, and fucking (supervised) Youtube than they do at school and if I didn't have to work to afford all this shit I'd probably homeschool them.

if English is not an individual's first language, should the fact that s/he cannot quite pass the literacy test determine that s/he should not teach in UK schools?

Yes!! Why you would you want someone teaching your children English if they themselves did not have the ability to pass a basic literacy test.

A teacher in the trained in the UK cannot teach in Ireland without having a high mark at an level equivalent of the Irish language at least (in fact every in Ireland needs to pass Irish too).

I have 9 Irish teaching friends who trained in Ireland and not one of them has an A level or equivalent in English or maths.

Pretty sure the current NQT at my school doesn't either. Sure she did her degree in Ireland and her PGCE in England, based on how long she's been here, could be wrong though. But she definitely doesn't have a level English and maths based on what's she told me her specialist subject areas are.

Mine learn far more from Saturday language classes, travel, extracurricular art and sport, and fucking (supervised) Youtube than they do at school and if I didn't have to work to afford all this shit I'd probably homeschool them.

God I was glad to see “YouTube” then 😂😂😂

@twistyturnycurlywhirly I’m going to presume they are northern Irish!?? In the rep of Ireland you need to pass English, Irish and maths leaving certificate (a level equivalent) to even get into university. Either that and they are really old and did the older O LEVELS??

When i did my PGCE, it had been 24 years since my Maths and English O levels so it probably was sensible to check my skills. I think it's the speedy mental maths with causes most problems. Tbh I do think would be teachers should be capable of passing these as even if they teach art or PE for example, they will still need to write reports and understand figures. Would make sense for unis to have them as an entry requirement so when you are offered a place, you go and take them before investing time and money

**I do feel Maths is a subject where an exception might be made. You really don’t need excellent spelling to be an excellent Maths teacher.

Are you joking?
Even ks2 problem solving questions require students to use literacy skills to work out what maths they need to use.
Absolutely insulting.
Ks4 gcse worded questions can be very complex even at foundation level.
Teachers absolutely need literacy and numeracy

There are a large number of companies who offer tuition and resources to help students pass these tests. The services can be expensive. If the government wants people to pass the tests, should they not invest in free training or brush up services and resources that can help individuals prepare for the tests?

Well, it’s redundant now isn’t it? The government are scrapping the test completely and don’t need to pay a penny!

Cutting these masks the terrible recruitment and retention crisis we have in teaching

And I expect this is exactly the reason why it’s being done. Haven’t teaching recruitment targets been missed for years in a row? Not looking good, is it?

The only thing we can hope for is that the Tories get booted out with the next GE, but Christ knows I’d that will happen.

@Aragog she will have to have her leaving cert to do a degree In Ireland!! And to get into university she will have to have English, Irish and maths...they are compulsory here!!