AIBU for thinking the DfE have got this one wrong?

[herculepoirot2]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7242631/Maths-spelling-tests-trainee-teachers-scrapped-attempt-boost-staff-numbers.html

Trainee teachers hated these tests, because they meant they could invest in a PGCE or on-the-job teacher training route, but be asked to leave because of limitations in their ability to spell or do basic calculations.

Then the Government cancelled the cap on the number of times you could take the test before being disqualified from teaching, because it was affecting recruitment numbers. Now the Government are abolishing the test altogether, because of the several thousands of potential teachers who have failed to qualify every year as a result of failing them.

Aren’t they mopping the decks on the Titanic? If teaching has become so undesirable as a profession that they can only plug the gap by recruiting people who struggle to spell twenty middle-order words, or to calculate a simple percentage value given pen and paper, shouldn’t they be dealing with the very obvious workload and behaviour issues affecting the numbers of people applying to teacher training, rather than lowering the standard of education required to do it?

I have a small child. Although I sympathise with those colleagues who have signed up to teacher training and had to leave because they couldn’t pass these tests, some of whom have been absolutely lovely, I do not want my child taught by someone whose ability to spell and do simple maths has never been tested in any robust way.

AIBU?

I recently passed these tests (although have deferred my teacher training place for personal reasons). The content is not hard. What I found difficult was the lack of time in the mental arithmetic section. I had to learn alot of new shortcuts and practise alot to get quick enough. In some of the questions you have to process quite a few pieces of information in a very short period of time eg you get a minute but that includes listening to the question.

I think the tests are embarrassing nonsense and I hope that they do go. How cringeworthy that we have to ‘prove’ we can at least do maths and English to primary level!

Although a lot is two words, 3 - ffs. Maybe that’s why we need them!

I think the tests are embarrassing nonsense and I hope that they do go. How cringeworthy that we have to ‘prove’ we can at least do maths and English to primary level!

But the point is that they are putting people off, so people wanting to be teachers include those who can't actually actually use maths and English at an acceptable level. It's the most basic requirement.

joanofbarc

The only reason they are going is that people are failing them, so clearly the problem isn’t that they are embarrassingly easy!

My issue with them was that I had O levels, A Levels and a 2 degrees. Why did I need to go back and do tests that were lower skill level than any of them AND that bore no resemblence to anything I was teaching?

Try using any of the maths in those tests when teaching physiology or biomechanics and you'll get nowhere.

Then I spent my twighlight years leading the Functional Skills / GCSE resit department. OMG!

The sheer funk those students fell into when presented with a maths question. Divison? Some weird table thing with lots of crossing out and numbes down each side from which you pick a random selection and hope it is right!

What the fuck was that?

I used to start each lesson asking them to write on the board the 'method' they had been taught at school and to try a sample question. Very, very few ever got a question right. And these were kids a few weeks out of school! Many had failed their maths multiple times and were absolutely certain they were stupid. They weren't, they had just been taught methods, rather than how to!

Some of those kids are now training to be teachers!!!!!! I find that both depressing and terrifying!

And it is also being discussed whether you should need a degree to be a teacher. Plenty on MN think no, keen enthusiasm and being good with the kids is more important than proven academic ability.

And also, there’s a mistake in the answers on that test paper. There are mistakes on most papers. It's as if the exam boards are staffed by people who couldn't pass the tests either.

That's another thing I found in my last teaching years: Attention to detail has fallen out of fashion, near enough is probably good enough!

The reason we have to have those tests are because the entry requirements to teach are zilch!

twighlight
Divison
resemblence

That’s why.

It might mean a few more people qualify than previously but it won’t help long term. We are past the point of no return. It will take a brave and determined Government to sort it. The voting public needs to see beyond the removal of these tests but unfortunately - as we see again and again on here - everyone seems to think teachers are the problem themselves.

The skills tests were random thing to ask for. One of the tasks of PGCE interview was a hand written essay about an unseen article of a teaching theory - surely they could have assessed my SPaG from that.

My biggest concern as a parent is that is fiddling while Rome burns. Yes we have a teacher recruitment issue but the larger problem is the retention crisis. There is no point focusing on recruiting and training teachers if we can keep them teaching.

I’m going to put in a caveat at this point, and feel free to correct me if you are a teacher of one of these subjects and disagree with the premise, but I think if you teach a subject at secondary that requires far less writing (Art/PE) then the requirement isn’t as important, and actually the test limits the ability to hire people who are the best at those particular things, to teach them.
I teach a performing arts subject and agree with this to an extent. On top of teaching I also work professionally with local theatres directing productions, and coach on summer schools, work with performing arts companies etc. These experiences are passed down to the kids I teach and enable me to speak with authority about what I teach. I don’t just teach i do. However I Also passed all the skills tests 15 years ago first time and have a masters degree in my specialism so the two aspects are not mutually exclusive. I have to write hundreds of reports, contact parents, analyse data, create spreadsheets, use sims, do all sorts of administrative tasks which require basic maths and English skills. I have been consistently rated outstanding and my department has been one of the most popular and thriving in the school. Featured in every newsletter, all over school social media, mentioned in every ‘success story’ at the school for their marketing purposes. I also started my own thread yesterday about leaving my toxic working environment. I nearly left teaching altogether. When teachers like me who are so passionate about their subject and committed want to leave because they’re being treated so badly, the profession is in crisis.

Another caveat: every teacher makes errors. Every teacher has been corrected by the smartest child in the class. You take it on the chin. It’s good for you, in a way
Absolutely! I’m going to be teaching A level again in September and am already mentally prepared for the questions I don’t know the answer to

Don’t forget under Gove it became fine for public funded academies to employ entirely unqualified teacher staff if they do wanted. I can’t recall if an exception is made for head teachers or not.

And it is also being discussed whether you should need a degree to be a teacher. Plenty on MN think no, keen enthusiasm and being good with the kids is more important than proven academic ability. See, I agree with that, sort of.

If someone is keen and has not got a degree therre should be a way into teaching for them. If the government would stop with the self aggrandising and grandstanding (so many EdSecs so few clues) they could quite easily have a long, slow track to teaching. TA - HTA - something in the middle including lesson prep - specialist course to A level equivalence / degree equivalence - teaching certificate. All done 'on the job'

But no... elite bollocks all the way... with no safe groundwork on which to base it! Basically education has been lgreatly lackng for years. This is just the forst time the wider public have seen absolute proof that basic skills have been lost in the fog of additional social repsonsibilites, parent replacement skills and all round lack of actual teaching!

I don't think anyone is blaming teachers

Well, it’s sort of already happening samphire

I am disgusted that they are stopping these.
People already have a low opinion of teachers in this country and this will only decrease public confidence.
To be honest I would also like to have a general knowledge aspect introduced as particularly in primary surely the point is that you are imparting all basic skills and knowledge to your charges.
I know a lot of primary school teachers and many of them are clearly lacking in basic skills. I don’t often see the same in secondary, where I work though.

The pp poster who said her innumerate friend is working in year 6 - that seems like silly positioning. Presumably she would have the relevant knowledge to teach year 3 or similar....

Rainbows - teaching used to be SHITE.

I’m not kidding. Maybe I had exceptionally bad teachers, I don’t know, but I DO know I learned next to nothing in my years in school.

Even now I find myself sometimes embarrassed by lack of general knowledge or grammar (I do know what is correct but not WHY it is correct! )

CuriousaboutSamphire

I believe a teacher is someone who is employed to teach knowledge and skills they already possess to people who don’t possess them. So no, I don’t think people who haven’t proven their own knowledge and skill should be able to find a route into teaching. It is a degree-level profession because we are supposed to be able to guide the brightest young minds in our country to achieving their highest potential at A Level. How can a person who hasn’t studied for their own degree teach a student to meet a standard they can’t meet themselves?

The reason we have to have those tests are because the entry requirements to teach are zilch!

Well that’s not true, is it? You need a degree but given nearly 50% of us now attend university, it means very little. Training providers are not afraid to turn away people they consider unsuitable, and people fail the course. A good percentage pass but never do their NQT year and plenty of NQTs leave before the year is finished. There is considerable selection in those early years, making it all the worse that so few teach now beyond the 5 year mark,

The pp poster who said her innumerate friend is working in year 6 - that seems like silly positioning. Presumably she would have the relevant knowledge to teach year 3 or similar....

Teachers qualify in a Key Stage, so a person who can teach Y3 needs to be able to teach Y6. They may never be called upon to do it, but they should be able to.

But only sort of Joan and has been for donkeys yers, I suppose. But it needs to be a clear and recognised pathway to teaching rather tha a 'fall into it if you are lucky and have support' accident of circumstances.

That and we need a time machine to go back to 1988 and stop the introduction of an absolute and global curriculum!

I think they are wrong to scrap them. My GCSE maths/English were a long time ago and functional maths and English is different.

When I trained there were unlimited attempts and I know of English/Maths trainees in my year who failed the literacy/numeracy test multiple times.

In later years, aspiring trainees had to pass them before getting on the course.

Everyone makes the occasional silly mistake. Every teacher will have a moment when a child points out a mistake. Nobody wants their child taught by someone with a lower literacy level than an average 12 year old.

Even with the tests I've met trainees who can't write to the accuracy standard of the y6 writing framework and have poor subject knowledge (and a first or 2:1 from local crap university).
Do people want their children taught by people who can't work out a percentage or read data from a basic graph?

It seems to me that this shows the government has no intention of retaining good staff or getting good staff back to teaching because they are happy for any old person off the street to come and give it a go.