AIBU for thinking the DfE have got this one wrong?

[herculepoirot2]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7242631/Maths-spelling-tests-trainee-teachers-scrapped-attempt-boost-staff-numbers.html

Trainee teachers hated these tests, because they meant they could invest in a PGCE or on-the-job teacher training route, but be asked to leave because of limitations in their ability to spell or do basic calculations.

Then the Government cancelled the cap on the number of times you could take the test before being disqualified from teaching, because it was affecting recruitment numbers. Now the Government are abolishing the test altogether, because of the several thousands of potential teachers who have failed to qualify every year as a result of failing them.

Aren’t they mopping the decks on the Titanic? If teaching has become so undesirable as a profession that they can only plug the gap by recruiting people who struggle to spell twenty middle-order words, or to calculate a simple percentage value given pen and paper, shouldn’t they be dealing with the very obvious workload and behaviour issues affecting the numbers of people applying to teacher training, rather than lowering the standard of education required to do it?

I have a small child. Although I sympathise with those colleagues who have signed up to teacher training and had to leave because they couldn’t pass these tests, some of whom have been absolutely lovely, I do not want my child taught by someone whose ability to spell and do simple maths has never been tested in any robust way.

AIBU?

It’s a difficult one as I agree with both hercule and curious

Mind you Jully was on my board yesterday.

Teaching is a profession. It should be paid and valued accordingly. Teachers should be expected to reach a high standard but the quid pro quo for that is that they should have respect, autonomy, good training and plenty of support. Until we do all of that it's no great surprise that many good graduates don't even consider going into teaching.

My mum was a primary school teacher, and a good one. She trained at a college back in the 50s. She worked hard and so did most of her colleagues, but until Ofsted, SATS, the NC etc etc arrived there were always a few teachers who got away with murder. In the 70s/80s she had one colleague, let's call her Hilda, who arrived at school in the morning as the children were coming into the playground, usually beat the kids out of the school gates at 3.15 and managed to claim a salary increment for taking responsibility for watering the school plants. There were two parallel classes in that school and it was an accepted fact in that school that the teacher who inherited Hilda's class would have her work cut out to get them up to the same standard as the other class in the year because they'd be so far behind.

That kind of thing needed sorting out. It's a great shame that we seem to have swung far too far in the other direction.

@herculepoirot2 Complete tangent. Your earlier post made me smile - my DC is doing Handmaids Tale so Margaret Atwood teaching it would be great.

I'm a teacher. I passed the English and ICT test first time, but failed the maths one first time. I agree with you actually. These tests are needed and if you're unable to pass them after a couple of attempts, teaching is not for you.

DuckbilledSplatterPuff

It would!

I wonder where the bar will be set when we start getting through the generation who have 9 - 1 GCSEs? Perhaps part of a solution there would be to expect a 5 rather than a 4? I doubt it will be though...

I think, possibly, the rot set in when the standard was set at a C or equivalent at GCSE. The equivalents could be skills tests, used in schools for the least able to eventually get through enough very basic tests to achieve something that - to make it seem valid- was deemed equivalent to GCSE.

I am on the fence about these tests. I would rather the entrance standards were more rigorous for teaching but can see that is idealism. I'd like to think anyone teaching my child had a good set of A levels in subjects relevant to the subject they teach, a good core at GCSE, and a good degree at 2:1 or above although DH has a 3rd (!) and is definitely very bright, so there are exceptions. He does, however, have 9 As at O Level... But I sometimes think I am too idealistic for this brave new world.

All of this leads many (often on MN) to believe all teachers are a bit dim and scraped maybe a C and a couple of Ds at A Level. and for the first time in years recently I felt the need to make it known that, actually, I have a damn fine set of results at all levels!

It’s a difficult one as I agree with both hercule and curious

That's kind of where I am too. I know hercule is right, standards are dropping like a stone. But I also know that there just have to be other ways of training good teachers.

I think we can all agre that the education system, as it actually is rather than how it looks on an Ed Sec's laptop, is appalling, not fit for purpose in very many ways!

All of this leads many (often on MN) to believe all teachers are a bit dim and scraped maybe a C and a couple of Ds at A Level. and for the first time in years recently I felt the need to make it known that, actually, I have a damn fine set of results at all levels!*

Shout it, Piggy

herculepoirot2
Trying to write this without being outing is difficult so please excuse the vague adaptations.
I believe the trainee was under the belief that the only knowledge they needed was to read the next lesson's PowerPoint having read the summary of the text.

But I also know that there just have to be other ways of training good teachers.

There are. Raise the expected standard. Put the pay up. Reduce the stress and workload.

Ah yes, Piggy I should have added, it is not the fault of the teachers. It really is an organisational fail. Decades of EdSec tinkering and electioneering!

In the 'olden days' when the people cited on here went to teacher training colleges, they were not thrown straight into the job. They spent several years honing skills , but also learning subject matter , and how to teach it. So, the maths and grammar/spelling was taught (or reinforced) to them there.

I believe the trainee was under the belief that the only knowledge they needed was to read the next lesson's PowerPoint having read the summary of the text.

Because you are responsible for her scheme of learning and she just needs to be able to read it off the board?

There are. Raise the expected standard. Put the pay up. Reduce the stress and workload All of which would be nice... but wouldn't raise the objective knowledge levels of any individual. The system is crap, it needs an overhaul from EFYS on up.

Once that is done it would take a generation to get the first 'properly' educated kids into degrees to become 'properly educated' teachers, passing on their skills and knowledge, keeping that ball rolling!

We can't just ask kids that have come throuigh the existing system to suddenly up their game without additional and focussed support - including more vigorous English and maths skills!

I think we actually agree, but differ on the methodology

EYFS pshaw!

Becauseyouare responsible for her scheme of learning and she just needs to be able to read it off the board?
Essentially. Maybe change an activity or two some lessons but nothing more. No developed teacher input, no modelling of writing and other basics.

They weren't the sort of person who responded well to constructive criticism to improve either because it was clearly our school's expectations that were wrong

Ive not read the whole thread but YANBU with your op. Im an experienced teacher. I trained via GTP (on the job) but still had to pass these tests. We have a retention crisis due to underfunding. More teachers are quitting than applying. The government thinks the way to solve this is to make becoming a teacher easier. However, without the funding and support, those teachers will quit too.

There does seem to be a bit of a misconception as to what you need to be a teacher.

To get my QTS I had to have a good degree, a PGCE, skills tests and to have successfully completed my NQT year.

At each of these points other people failed. My PGCE course leader was tough and failed three of my fellow trainees. We had to pass each of our three training placements. Anyone who didn’t pass a placement had to do extra support work.

I also know people who failed their NQT year.

But this was before the teacher shortage became so serious. Am a bit pissed off that I worked so hard and now the qualifications are being de-valued. It is hard enough to convince parents and kids to trust you these days.

Apparently they were just going to use sparknotes for the overview and I didn't understand their workload if to expected them, as trainee English teachers, to read a book over a fortnight's prep time

Erm I have a friend who is a qualified teacher who does this. We really shouldn’t fall into the trap of assuming because someone has qualified as a teacher, they’re good at it!

I did the PGCE 2002/03.

It was piss easy. When did you do yours, Belle?

I think anyone who teaches should have a basic level of maths and English.

A friend of mine is a primary teacher and constantly confuses they’re/there/their and your/you’re etc. To be perfectly honest I wouldn’t want my children being taught by someone who can’t get these sort of basics right.

When she got an offer to study primary teaching she only needed two D grade at A Level - what does that tell you about the standard we are expecting of our teachers?

I really think teaching needs to be more competitive/better paid/have a higher social status to attract better candidates.

All of which would be nice... but wouldn't raise the objective knowledge levels of any individual.

Of course it would.

While I have agreed that standards should not be lowered. It is also worth noting that the vast majority of teachers are better at their jobs and children get much more help to do well than they did 20 years ago.
When I took my GCSEs in the 90s at a very good state grammar lessons were dull and teacher led- often based on the teacher dictating something from a text book. I rarely remember having targets or being told what to do to get the next level.
A teacher who taught in the way I was would be on capability procedures now.

The maths test is actually quite hard, I’m really good at maths and struggled on some of the practice questions I tried when my husband took the test.

I think they need a rethink with teaching itself. People going into teaching at the moment are paid more to train than they are actually paid to do the job fully qualified for several years. The tax free grants are 25/26k for the sciences (but you still pay 9k fees granted) and then once you qualify and have an even greater workload you are taking home in your first year about 18k after tax, ni, student loan and pension etc. If you divide the pay by the actual hours worked it’s way below national minimum wage. So let’s think about this about 60k of debt to earn 18k a year, it doesn’t make much sense does it.

Scrap the 9k to do the PGCE, improve teachers work load so that they can actually have a life and pay them better and you’ll find you can retain the high standards that are required to teach... just need to find that magic money pot to do all this!

I did these tests. The literacy one was easy if you are literate, but as a former writer and editor I did get annoyed by the mistakes in the test. The Maths one required practice, as the format of the test constantly interrupts your thought process by repeating the question a second time. Also you have to take it in a driving test centre which is very distracting. It is not testing quant skills so much as the ability to calculate at speed in the face of much distraction. In a way it's quite relevant for the profession! They should probably arrange roadworks outside and ensure you need the loo...

My issue with it is where is the training and support for those who came out of school without a good grasp of these basics? The literacy stuff simply wasn't taught at my 'progressive' school in the 80s. I picked it up from reading. The Maths methods (much of which are actually simple stats) I learnt from a library book. I have got an A-level in Maths and a first class degree in Economics. I could not have passed these tests without practice.

It is all rather silly. At the least the DFE should provide some kind of bootcamp online courses free for those who need them. A lot of adults would benefit!

Finally, whoever said Art teachers don't need to be literate, hasn't looked at the syllabuses - there are essays...