Are state schools beyond help?

[user1480880826]

I see so many threads on AIBU about state schools. There seem to be issues with teachers (specifically the lack of consistent teachers and number of supply teachers), kids behaviour not being dealt with, lack of resources, cost of having to subsidise underfunded schools etc etc.

Is the state school system really as dysfunctional as it appears on mumsnet? Should I be saving up to send my kid to private schools? You don’t see parents coming on here and complaining about their private school.

For those of you with kids in state schools, would you send your kids to private school if money wasn’t a problem?

it’s that you can’t get computing teachers for love nor money.

So if state control of education was so good, they'd have taken steps to ensure plenty of teachers back in the 80s when computing first beame mainstream and it was blatantly obvious it would affect everyone, every career, every job, every aspect of society, etc. It's not as if the importance of IT is something that has just taken us by surprise in the last few years. Why hasn't "the state" dealt with the IT teacher issue over the last 40 years? You can't blame academies - they're a recent thing.

IT was crap when I was at school 15 years ago. Boring, old fashioned and you seemed to repeat the same word processing/spreadsheet stuff every term. It's sad that nothings changed.

IT was crap when I was at school 15 years ago. Boring, old fashioned and you seemed to repeat the same word processing/spreadsheet stuff every term. It's sad that nothings changed

Our comp offered computing as a 4th/5th year option back around 1979(?). I stupidly didn't take it as it was it's first year so I thought it would be a bit of a shambles. I then got involved through a friend who was taking it and joined in a kind a lunchtime club. I was absolutely fascinated. We had a single computer - a Commodore PET and a teletype printer which they "fiddled" to make it work via a home made cable. The guy doing the teaching was a Maths teacher who was basically just teaching himself along with the pupils week by week. They weren't really lessons as such, just a group of pupils and a teacher just muddling along, watching and learning from each other all sat around the one computer. What they did was pretty amazing - taught themselves coding, started writing some simple programs, created a few games, etc. I've no idea whether they actually took any formal exams in it (no idea if O level computing actually existed back then), but they all continued in the sixth form, and every single one of them went to Uni (rare at the time, especially from a comp). I'm still in sporadic contact with a few of them, and all the ones I know are still working in IT today as top IT consultants in the banks, industry etc. Just shows what you can do - where there's a will, there's a way.

But, today's apparent fixation with spreadsheets, word processing, power point etc isn't really IT or computing as such. It's just learning to use software, which most kids are more than capable of teaching themselves as they'll be teaching themselves to use minecraft, apps, etc. and most modern software is pretty easy to use and learn. Then again, the current fad of teaching basic coding is pretty crap too.

Where's the teaching of robotics, machine learning, cyber security, systems design, etc?

We still teach kids algebra/trig "just in case" a few go into engineering, higher maths, etc. We still teach kids manual woodworking and metal working just in case they go into engineering/manual trades. Why don't we teach proper computing as far more students will go into careers involving computing. We really are stuck in the past.

today's apparent fixation with spreadsheets, word processing, power point etc isn't really IT or computing as such. It's just learning to use software

This isn’t taught any more. ICT was binned. Put a kid in front of a spreadsheet now (A-level maths needs it) and they haven’t a clue.

Schools can’t get maths teachers or physics teachers as much as they can’t get computing teachers, for the simple reason that people who can do maths, physics or computing can earn far more in cushier working conditions elsewhere.

We still teach kids algebra/trig "just in case" a few go into engineering,

If you want kids to go into computing then teaching them maths is really important.

The computing skills shortage isn’t unique to teaching. The whole economy faces massive shortages in skilled IT professionals. And the computing teachers that are in post are often useless because they are just rebadged IT teachers.

The idea that we could get people in to teach cyber security and robotics when we can’t even get people in to teach Scratch...

The idea that we could get people in to teach cyber security and robotics when we can’t even get people in to teach Scratch...

If we continue with the philosophy that specific degrees are needed to teach a specific subject, then no, we won't. But, now we accept that such will never happen, how about working with what we do have, i.e. training up other subject teachers in these "rare" skills so that they can at least teach to a certain level, if not the highest level. Like I say, back in 1979 (ish) it was a Maths teacher at our school who taught computing and it actually seemed to work (the pupils who went on to top jobs in IT certainly thought so). Personally, I'd rather have non IT teachers teaching IT/computing skills at a lower level than no teaching of them at all. My son (17) has just done a cyber security module via Open University distance learning - it's far easier for existing teachers to be trained in other disciplines rather than making them take degrees to a level far higher than necessary. If teacher shortages in specific areas is such a problem, then perhaps it's the degree requirement in those areas that needs changing, otherwise the problem will never be solved.

it was a Maths teacher at our school who taught computing

So we can just use all the spare maths teachers we’ve got lying around to teach computing instead?

What we do have spare teachers of is PE, but they’re mostly teaching maths. Or SLT.

If there's no other realistic choice, then, yes, using a teacher from a different subject is better than not teaching a subject at all.

We don't live in a perfect world.

Teachers of whatever subject have their teaching training and experience, so are already in a good position to teach other things that aren't their particular degree. After all, we have, say, History teachers having to teach "new" topics that weren't taught in their school/Uni days, so is there really that much difference? Teachers every day will be having to learn new things themselves in order to be able to teach them. My son's "tech" teacher used to be a Maths teacher, so he's "transitioned" away from his own degree subject.

We've had 40-50 years to sort this and it's not been sorted, so we need to work with who/what we've got and make the best of it. Yes, it'll be a compromise. But we'll still be saying the same thing in another 50 years because we aren't suddenly going to have a glut of people with IT degrees wanting to be teachers - the demand for quality IT staff will only increase, probably exponentially, so we need a change of thinking.

Kids are being badly let down by the system and something needs to change.

Computing specialisms are far too niche to just expect another teacher to cover. Especially if you want good teachers who are passionate about what they teach. @noblegiraffe is absolutely right. And when these skills are in chronic short supply in the private sector why would you go into teaching where you earn half as much money?

History teachers having to teach "new" topics that weren't taught in their school/Uni days, so is there really that much difference?

Er, yes. A history teacher teaching World War I when they studied World War II is very different to asking a PE teacher to teach Art. Some skills transfer between domains - e.g. you often have humanities teachers who teach them all. But the type of skills that make you good at computing are the skills that maths and physics teachers have, and we already don’t have those to share.

So, come on, then, you clearly want "perfect world", so how are we going to even encourage kids to take computer science at uni when they've had no exposure at school, to give a pool of people able to teach?

You can't just "pay more" for IT teaching, because then we'll have a shortage of IT professionals in jobs that need them.

My son keeps dithering about taking a CS degree at uni, but can't bring himself to take the plunge because he's not had an hour of CS/IT teaching in school. When we go to Uni open days, the IT staff/students all say the same - we ask whether not having CS GCSE/A level is a problem and they overwhelmingly say no and all say that lack of exposure is a real problem and they have to try hard to encourage people like my son to take the plunge and choose the degree.

Er, yes. A history teacher teaching World War I when they studied World War II is very different to asking a PE teacher to teach Art.

What about my son's History teacher who found himself having to teach "medical advancements over time" (or something similarly named) which covered health and medicine from around 1200 to the 20th century. He readily admitted he'd never studied anything like that before and was honest enough to say he was a chapter ahead of the kids in the text book!

very different to asking a PE teacher to teach Art.

What about a PE teacher who'd taken Art to A level but chose Sports science teaching for their degree?

Anyway, one of my old teachers has just retired. He was a games teacher. Somehow over the years he'd morphed into a Geography teacher and in his retirement interview he admitted he only had an O level in Geography.

If it's so hard to switch subjects, perhaps efforts should be made to make it easier, particularly when the teacher has A levels in the target subject.

@Kazzyhoward it’s a problem for government to solve. They need to incentivize people to train in computing and then they need to incentivize those people to become teachers. It’s a massively long term solution to a massively overlooked problem. We’ve known for years that this was going to happen but the government has done little to address it.

And now we have the double whammy of potentially losing an enormous number of skilled EU workers.

We’ve known for years that this was going to happen but the government has done little to address it.

Yes, indeed, successive governments over 40+ years. It's nothing new.

Kazzy where are you going to get these teachers with computer science A-level to switch to teaching computer science? You’ve already said yourself that kids aren’t taught it. And we are currently training the kids that have A-level maths to become maths teachers, so you’re not stealing those.

It’s not that I want a perfect world, I think you’re just ignoring the totally and utterly dire straits that teaching is in. The government has failed to meet its recruitment targets for years now. More teachers are leaving the profession than entering it. We don’t have enough teachers to teach the subjects already on the curriculum.

Trying to get teachers to teach computing will just be taking them from somewhere else that they’re desperately needed.

I don't see the IT / computing tuition to be such a problem, to be honest.
It can (and, probably, should) be done via technology / remotely, in a play form for younger pupils.
Equipment also does not cost a fortune in the 21 century.
Put kids in front of the laptops and put someone with good class control skills in charge (can be a PE teacher, why not). They will think they are playing a computer game, in reality they will learn algorithm architecture. I am amazed at the abundance of "programming for 5 year olds" type apps now.
The only thing lacking is some sort of centralised initiative.

Equipment also does not cost a fortune in the 21 century.

Schools can’t afford glue sticks, let alone edtech.

Where's the teaching of robotics, machine learning, cyber security, systems design, etc?

Sorry but I did a maths degree and things like machine learning & cryptography are final year modules! Not a GCSE!

Machine learning isn't something you just pick up on a YouTube video as a 14 year old, all the algorithms are based on some pretty hefty university maths. One of the methods (Support vector machines) has such complex maths that our lecturer told us not to bother understanding the derivation because he wouldn't test us on it.

This was in Masters year at Bath.

Kids need to learn basic maths first to go into computing careers. There's too many people who are still proud of being bad at maths, like "LOL I failed maths, I can't do numbers".

Don't see anyone boasting "LOL I can't read"

Some machine learning methods are fairly simple and a teen could understand, but others are really not.

Schools can’t afford glue sticks, let alone edtech.
Oh come on, that's a bit dramatic and does not help. Of course schools can afford glue sticks as well as laptops.

I don't see the IT / computing tuition to be such a problem, to be honest.---- The only thing lacking is some sort of centralised initiative.

I think that's what I'm trying to say. It's not just about teachers stood in front of a class - like everything else in the school system, that's the old "how it's always been" approach.

As I said upthread, my son did an Open University cyber security module online. I was really impressed with how well it had been programmed. It really was a "self study" software, where you had to do various things, like watch a video, read an article, etc., - you couldn't progress until you'd done it, and then you'd have end of topic tests, again where you couldn't proceed until you got a high enough score - the tests being a mixture of multiple choice, entering words, and even clicking on the right part of the screen during videos. My son said he actually found it enjoyable as the learning activities were so varied - he did an entire section whilst he was trailing us around a shopping centre!

Last month I did a couple of online courses to teach myself new accounting/payroll software. It turned out to be very similar and I was very impressed. Same idea - you watch/read snippets, then you have to answer some questions and then you move on to the next section, etc and then you have final exam encompassing all you've learned - if I hadn't got a high enough score, I wouldn't have got the accreditation and would have to go back to re-do the sections I failed on. I found it really good and far better than having a "human" sat next to you showing you how to do it.

Best thing with this kind of learning is that the "marking" and progress is all available at the touch of a button to whoever is supervising.

This is the future we need to be working towards, so that the majority of capable/behaved pupils can progress at their own pace, leaving teachers to deal with the minority who are struggling or disruptive and to deal with the things better suited to "class" activities like science practicals etc.

It seems that during the last 40+ years we've not really moved on much beyond "chalk and talk". Yes, we've had loads of initiatives, lots of faffing around with exams and curriculums etc., but we're still "chalk and talk" but now with a whiteboard, and we have photocopied scrappy worksheets instead of purple duplicated ones.

And no, I'm not blaming teachers for this. State education has been badly managed by the so-called education experts, unions and politicians for decades and sooner or later it will have to be modernised and made fit for the future.