Are state schools beyond help?

[user1480880826]

I see so many threads on AIBU about state schools. There seem to be issues with teachers (specifically the lack of consistent teachers and number of supply teachers), kids behaviour not being dealt with, lack of resources, cost of having to subsidise underfunded schools etc etc.

Is the state school system really as dysfunctional as it appears on mumsnet? Should I be saving up to send my kid to private schools? You don’t see parents coming on here and complaining about their private school.

For those of you with kids in state schools, would you send your kids to private school if money wasn’t a problem?

If I sent kids to private school and they charged vat, I would just send them to a state school and get tutors?

@FermatsTheorem - I think the zero tolerance behaviour policy would be quite effective. I went to private and there was some of this, DH went to state and there was much more. Where I grew up abroad this type of behaviour would not be acceptable

I meant some of low level disruption...

I work for a MAT. The lead outstanding school is sadly the preserve of the wealthy and these children are getting a better experience than those at schools in the MAT in deprived areas. They have more opportunities, attract the best teachers and have sharp elbowed parents. The contrast is massive in results. The children at the outstanding comp aren't brighter, just richer and living in a miniscule catchment.

Much of this is also subjective. My fairly academic son attended an outstanding comp but found it did not deliver in the same way as his brilliant primary. He wasn't stretched, there was little ambition and the kids in 'top' sets were not pushed. There was also low level disruption in classes frequently.

Family member sent their daughter there who thought the standards were very high compared to their poorly performing primary.

But the results were under average, staff were leaving and behaviour was poor.

The school moved to RI at its next inspection and leaders seemed shocked. Yet as a parent the Ofsted report captured what we had experienced.

I've seen that some state schools can be superb. The one I work at outperforms the non selective. The wealthy parents could afford private but don't.
Their children have a social advantage to begin with. I'm more impressed when a comp in a deprived area bucks the trend.

non selective private school that should read.

There’s no such thing as a “non selective private school”.

If you are a kid who wants to do further maths, physics, computer science, languages you’re probably not going to get a relevantly qualified teacher or the course might not even be offered. Schools are cutting back on provision of the arts and tech.
DC secondary can't offer a foreign language this year at GCSE as they don't have the staff. A very standard option my DC wanted isn't on offer as not enough students - partly as they've had very limited number of lessons in first three years with an actual subject teacher.

They've both had months of unqualified teachers and supply after supply.

There are issues and the LEA and school seem to be working hard to get to grips but teacher shortages are an issue. Low level disruption is a huge issue.

However, DH and I still think more of the staff seem to care about our kids than in the schools we went to and there is a good sense of community – and we hope we can help plug any gaps at home.

I do think more could be done to manage teachers’ workloads and work experiences better so retention was better.

I don’t think we’d pay for private but if we had more money – we’d have bought other end of town – for at least twice as much as our current house in catchment for the state secondary school there – or lived in same city as DH works in catchement one of their better state schools.

Sorry non selective in terms of academic selection, not financial.

I am appalled and enduringly angry about what successive governments have done to our education system, starting wit Blunkett and his support for more faith schools, through Gove and on to May who looked at overall lack of funding and pulled the hugely wasteful Grammar School fake-consultation out if the bag.

My children in a non Leafy are of S London have had a good state education and are achieving well. But I have watched arts trips silently disappear, STEM club drop off the schedule, seen several disasters with TeachFirst and NQTs employed to save money.

I have teacher friends and family who are dealing with draconian, bullying ‘super-manager ‘ heads who know nothing about young people or education.

I have seen my kids suffer from this target driven culture: teaching to the test has dulled their genuine interest and enthusiasm, didactic instruction has disaffected them from discovery.

But I see this as government-imposed. Teachers seem to do well in spite of all that the DfE lobs at them.

I also think that there could be winners and losers from VAT on school fees and it could have some unexpected effects. Taxes should not be imposed as a punishment but because they raise revenue effectively. The sugary drink tax, for example, has not raised much revenue because the manufacturers have changed the ingredients. So that's kind of a win in health terms (although I don't know if the additives are any healthier) but as a revenue raiser, it's rubbish. Schools being able to offset the VAT on inputs might just end up purchasing even more equipment and facilities.

Anyway, I never wanted to work in or send my child to a private school particularly, but given all the factors, it made sense.

I understood the point the poster of USSR heritage was making. I have students of similar heritage whose parents feel the same.

BertrandRussell

From what I know about the jobs etc of the other parents at the private school we left, I think that a significant proportion of them would find a sudden 20% fee rise financially challenging. We live in one of the less wealthy parts of the UK.
There’d definitely be at least some of them forced to leave for the state sector as a consequence.

I don’t know how many children this school could afford to lose, but I think the school closing as a consequence of VAT on school fees is a very realistic possibility.

I’m sure our old school wouldn’t be the only private school in danger of closing in this scenario.

Whether the impact of that on the state sector would be balanced out by VAT from the sort of mega wealthy parents who can afford to spend over £30k per year on school fees without a second thought is another question and one I don’t know the answer to.

My son's state school is really good.

My kids have excelled in the state school system but may be that's because I'm a awesome parent!

starting wit Blunkett and his support for more faith schools, through Gove and on to May

Useless politicians were damaging state education long before Blunkett - go back 60 years to where the rot really set it.

So in the real world, the obvious solution is to impose VAT on school fees. Simple, and would raise loads of dosh

If one sixth of the current private school parents stopped using them, there'd be no revenue raised and the state would have to find funding for them in state schools.

Well, I am happy over 60 years with the dismantling of the Grammar / Secondary Modern / Technical system in the vast majority of areas (though it seemed to take a while to get comprehensive Ed on track), I am glad most state schools are now co-Ed, that corporal punishment had been abolished and that all stay in beyond their 14th birthday.

We are lucky that we have DC at great local state infant and junior schools. They have strong PTAs who raise a lot of funds to fill in the funding gaps though and pay for one TA salary. They definitely need more funding.

I also think parents need to take more responsibility for supporting their children’s education where they can. The expectations from some parents that school is responsible for everything doesn’t help teachers and is totally unrealistic.

Actually vulpine, I agree with your sentiment.

If parents don't make the effort, the kids will fail whatever education system they are in.

“If one sixth of the current private school parents stopped using them”

But they wouldn’t.

But they wouldn’t

So you're tax plan would change nothing - there'd still be the same number of pupils in the same number of private schools. How would that help?

A lot of people would. The rise in prices that means many people would be pushed over the edge financially. Many parents struggle financially to keep their kids in private.

Useless politicians were damaging state education long before Blunkett - go back 60 years to where the rot really set it.

Was the state education FOR EVERY CHILD genuinely excellent 60 years ago?

Was it excellent for children with SEN?

Was it excellent for families where the child might have passed the 11+ but the uniform was too expensive / the school 'wasn't for the likes of us'?

Was it excellent for every child in the secondary modern?

One of the real challenges of state schools in modern times is that they - rightly - are expected to educate every child. Children with disabilities are not sent to institutions where they are not educated. Children stay in education beyond 16, as opposed to 14. Children who would once have gone to secondary moderns and left without qualifications are expected to get more than 5 good GCSEs.The majority - rather than a tiny minority - are prepared for further education.

But they wouldn’t.

How can you know that less than one sixth of private school parents would switch to state if VAT on fees came in? Have you got links to research or surveys on that?

This is all anecdotal, I know, but in relation to paying school fees, I know a lot of parents who are stressed about money and fee rises, even the predictable inflationary fee rises. They’re watching their finances carefully, they’re cutting back on discretionary spending in other areas, or downsizing / remortgaging homes, or accepting money from grandparents, or eating into savings while trying to find new better paying jobs.

None of them want to leave the private sector (or at least if they do they’re not admitting it), but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if at least one sixth of the private school parents I know were unable to afford to stay in the private sector if 20% VAT were added to the school fees.

I suspect that change to VAT rules would not cause parents to desert private schools immediately, but I do think it would encourage some 'sector switching' at natural break points (e.g. end of primary or for 6th form) and would discourage some parents from starting their children at private school who would otherwise do so.

From anecdotal evidence, parents seem to 'stick' in private once in (except e.g. if they have deliberately sent their child to a private primary to be coached for state grammar entrance, which is locally very common), so i suspect what schools would do is flex the fees so that fees for the initial years (e.g. Nursery / Reception; Y3; Y7/8 depending on starting point) were lower, and then apply the full effect of the VAT increase in subsequent years.

Noblegiraffe's post on Page 2 is an excellent summary of the current situation in the state sector. And this is exactly what I’m worried about. Lots of people have jumped to the defense of state schools but there will always be some good ones that buck the trend.

A lot of people have also claimed that they don’t think private schools could offer more than what their state school is offering. But that surely isn’t true? If it was then why would privately educated kids consistently take all of the top jobs and most of the places in the best universities? It’s about more than academic accomplishment too. These schools churn out kids that are confident, articulate and prepared for university and the business world. They make connections and have life experiences that you just wouldn’t get at the average state school.

there will always be some good ones that buck the trend

I think the situation is in fact the reverse - that, currently, the majority of state schools are good.

HOWEVER, these schools are having to juggle ever more frantically to maintain this with far lower funding, fewer places for SEN children, and higher teacher turnover (a vicious cycle, as obviously the more frantically the school is juggling, the harder it is for teachers, so the higher the turnover).

That means that the majority of state schools, those which are currently good, are skating on thinner and thinner ice, and that if this continues, more will fall through it because they will at some point be unable to maintain anything like their current offer and standards given the mismatch between the level of challenge and the level of resources.