Are state schools beyond help?

[user1480880826]

I see so many threads on AIBU about state schools. There seem to be issues with teachers (specifically the lack of consistent teachers and number of supply teachers), kids behaviour not being dealt with, lack of resources, cost of having to subsidise underfunded schools etc etc.

Is the state school system really as dysfunctional as it appears on mumsnet? Should I be saving up to send my kid to private schools? You don’t see parents coming on here and complaining about their private school.

For those of you with kids in state schools, would you send your kids to private school if money wasn’t a problem?

If a child has sen there is high likelihood they won't get their needs met. There are others with sen who are out for months or years waiting for a special school place.

No, I don't think state schools at beyond help. There are good and bad ones, as with anything. Equally, there are good and bad private schools.

My son is coming to the end of reception in our village state school and I wouldn't send him anywhere else. They have been amazing - he has been pushed in maths (he is very good at it apparently) and supported with writing (his least favourite). He loves school and has had so many experiences this year and made so much progress. I have nothing but praise for his teachers and TA's.

I work in a local state secondary school. Our building is fairly new (4 years old) and our intake is very average. However, myself and every single one of my colleagues go out of our way to provide the best possible lessons and other experiences for our pupils, regardless of their ability or background. Yes, school budgets are tight and we work extra hard to make sure the kids don't suffer as a result.

People post on forums when they have a complaint but I'm my experience, the vast majority of parents are mostly happy with their kids state schools.

I used to teach. I worked in 3 schools; out of those, there was only one which I briefly thought I would be willing to send my own DC to. However, it has since gone downhill. I don't think private schools would be massively better, main difference is that the class sizes are smaller and the school has more control about what it is willing to tolerate re: behaviour. If they pay above the average they might be more able to get rid of ineffective staff too, but that's not a given. I know plenty of awful private schools too. It's only a good thing for a head to have more control if she knows what she's doing.
I have friends who teach and have DC in both state and primary schools. For either, I would say that the ways to spot a good school are similar:

1. Low turnover and older staff members.
2. SEN children are well supported.
3. Head teacher is polite and approachable.
4. Teachers attend school events after school/ on weekends and so does the head.
5. Teachers don't go to work when they are visibly unwell.
6. Children generally behave well in the playground and are relatively polite.
7. School seems generally organised, e.g. school events are well advertised, there's a large and active pta, homework is well explained and up to date etc etc.

Turnover is the biggest clue. If the teachers can't handle being there every day for more than 2 years, your child probably doesn't want to either.

Just wanted to add... If a child with SEN or emotional/ behavioural difficulties regulaly needs to be carried out of the room, throws things or hurts the people around them, then the school is not appropriately managing that child's needs. Every school I have been in has had this issue. In my opinion, many many children who cannot deal with the demands and stimulation of a full day in the classroom are forced to get on with it, resulting in them lashing out at those around them. If we are going to be inclusive, we need to accept that children have individual needs and provide the staff and facilities needed for them to be able to have (for example) an hour of quiet time away from stimulation after lunch, or a mid-afternoon break outside if they're unable to sit for long periods. We also need to stop fobbing SEN children off on underpaid TAs unless we are going to give them the time,training and authority that they need to deal with them. I hated seeing the way that SEN children are treated in mainstream schools, that's one of the reasons that I left- not to mention the effect that it has on the rest of the class.

@arethereanyleftatall well fortunately that isn’t a choice to make in Britain but in a hypothetical situation yes I would pay (unless the private options were dismal in which case I would move). I value our independence from the state over academic results. Culture is more important to me because my family came from the USSR. They were highly educated (in the academic sense at least) but the cost they paid was tragically high. No amount of money is worth becoming dependent on your government. The vast majority of people in this country have no comprehension of how insidious this kind of dependence can become and how quickly. Many people are already selling their votes (for more benefits, more funding for their local school, etc etc) and they don’t even realise. I don’t want to give anyone that kind of power over my family.

'Culture is more important to me because my family come from the ussr' - Eh?

My son is coming to the end of reception in our village state school and I wouldn't send him anywhere else. They have been amazing - he has been pushed in maths (he is very good at it apparently) and supported with writing (his least favourite). He loves school and has had so many experiences this year and made so much progress. I have nothing but praise for his teachers and TA's.

Your reception-aged son has been pushed in maths?

Alaska, why is that a surprise?

My DS was able to add and subtract negative numbers, and very large numbers, in Reception (not because he had specifically been taught to, but because he had worked out how to). He could also read fluently on arrival at school, having taught himself.

His reception teacher started with where he was, and moved him along appropriately - which could look like 'pushing', but saying 'stay there and wait for the rest to catch up' would not be teaching.....

That's a teacher's job - to work out that he can read (and find suitable books for a 4 year old with the ability to read, but not be emotionally ready for, books for far older children), to work out that he can do a LOT of Maths, and to work out that while he can spell, he can't handwrite due to poor fine motor skills (so he needs an A4 spelling sheet photocopied up to poster size, and access to huge sheets of paper and a big felt tip or paintbrush for writing tasks!)

would you send your kids to private school if money wasn’t a problem?

We did. DC1 started his primary school education in a private school, DC2 followed him there.

We have recently switched to a state school.
The private school strongly suggested that we remove DC1 from their school because he has high functioning ASD and they couldn’t (or didn’t want to) support his needs. His teacher told us that DC1 had made no progress at all this academic year, he’d plateaued, would be unable to cope with the academic demands of the next year, would fail his GCSE’s etc etc.

As a consequence, we moved both DC to a local state primary school about half way through this school year.

Since then, DC1 has been moved up a year (he was educated in the year below at the private school). He’s getting the support he needs for his SEN. His end of year report says he’s meeting academic expectations for the year group.
I can see for myself from his homework etc that his reading & writing have improved dramatically since he started at the new school. The maths homework he’s bring home is (understandably) more advanced, but he’s able to understand it and complete it with very little help.

DC2 has joined the state school’s Reception class. Again, we’ve seen rapid, big, improvements in reading, writing, more challenging maths homework being sent home than in the private school.
Basically, DC2 is getting pushed more to achieve his potential now. The feeling we have is that the teacher DC2 had in the private school was letting DC2 get away with not putting much effort in academically.

So, academically speaking, this state primary school seems better than the private school we left. The main difference we’re seeing is the “extras” - the private school had a bigger range of sports, a bigger range of extra curricular clubs, did more school shows / class assemblies.
But we’d chosen to go private because of the perception that they’d be better at the academic side of teaching rather than because of the extras.

So, overall, having seen the quality of education in the state school we moved to, I’ve been feeling rather that we’ve paid the private school a lot of money for no good reason.

The state sysrtem isn’t perfect but it’s bloody good.
Never in the history of any government has the narrative been anything other than “we will fix the broken education system” it’s just the way it is.
If it’s ‘broken’ now then it always has been. Yes there are things wrong but there are also a hell of a lot of things right. Children in the UK get a 1st class education. We don’t know how lucky we are.

The Times publishes an on line schools guide and the empirical evidence is that state schools are improving in leaps and bounds, although I do agree that they need an injection of funds.

I also agree with others that it is not simply a matter of comparing state with private, as there are good and bad in each, and I have used both for my DC.

I think there’s a UN law forbidding a government monopoly on education so I’m not sure how Corbyn and co will get round that - if indeed the UN can enforce it

What law

The 2000 children out of school without an education because there aren't enough special school places, aren't getting a first class education.

the empirical evidence is that state schools are improving in leaps and bounds

What empirical evidence?

Is it just me who sees a user1234 ID in an OP and thinks "lazy journo."

In answer to your OP (assuming you are in good faith) DS's secondary is lovely, offers a wide range of courses (both academic and vocational), has good results and a zero tolerance policy for bad behaviour.

In fact it's almost a counter example to your OP, because it shows things aren't getting inexorably worse. 8 years ago it was a failing school - the inspection process and special measures procedures have worked exactly as they should have done, and the school has now been turned round.

You know, Fermat that there are plenty of people who will think the changes made at your DC’s school are actually the work of the devil?

In my view in an ideal world, there would be no private schools. I realise that is unrealistic. In a slightly less ideal world, there would be private schools but they would not have charitable status. I am assured that removing charitable status is virtually impossible. So in the real world, the obvious solution is to impose VAT on school fees. Simple, and would raise loads of dosh.

Bertrand would putting VAT on school fees raise loads of dosh or would pushing a significant number of children back into the state system costing money to the state actually mean dosh was not raised overall?

I think the vast majority of private school parents would pay up.

So in the real world, the obvious solution is to impose VAT on school fees. Simple, and would raise loads of dosh.

That would also affect state schools - if providing education was vatable you can't then say it would only apply to private schools. State schools would also have to account for vat on extra-curricula activities, trips, sports, etc. Vat is on the type of service, not the type of end user.

What makes you think that, Bertrand? There have already been private schools converting to state schools because of not enough parents being able to pay in recent times. How would that not just push more in that direction?

So in the real world, the obvious solution is to impose VAT on school fees. Simple, and would raise loads of dosh.

I can imagine the SEN departments all over the country would be thrilled at the idea of paying another 20% on top of all those fees for specialist residential schools, many of which are charities! The fees (when DD was at school) could be up to £250,000 pa!

The schools used to tell me LAs would not even fund a 1 or 2% rise for inflation, which meant they ended up with staff shortages!

Making private schools Vat registered would give them the ability to reclaim vat on their costs, particularly building work etc which is often funded by donations, so there could actually be a net loss to HMRC as a lot of private schools have huge building costs.

And what about Unis - they'd have to charge vat to foreign students and to businesses who are sponsoring degrees.

Exceptions could be made for schools for children with SEN.

And there is no reason why Universities should have to impose VAT as well.