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AIBU?

12th of July

444 replies

starbuckslover · 12/07/2019 12:27

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

OP posts:
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Isthisafreename · 12/07/2019 21:09

@Crocodilesoup - you have literally just posted about how unionists haven't "had it tough" and they are being viewed negatively by you by virtue of their birth not any acts of bigotry against nationalists!

I would consider all the following, listed in my previous post, to be acts of bigotry against catholics: gerrymandering electoral boundaries to ensure unionist majorities in northern elections. Denying nationalist civil rights in terms of jobs, housing etc was not particularly pleasant either. Add to that the sectarian intimidation during the 12th on an ongoing basis that meant catholics fled their homes on an annual basis.

I most certainly do not view anyone negatively by virtue of their birth. I view people based on their actions and attitudes.

What is the solution then for someone born Protestant in NI (and who suffered from growing up in the troubles with all the fear this brought to their childhood) other than not being a bigot, how can they make recompense for the wrongs of the past? Do we expect all British people to make up for the (many) wrongs of the Bristish empire?

Please point out where I suggested anyone needs to make recompense for the wrongs of the past? I posted an opposing viewpoint to the events you referred to, as your list suggested the poor underdog unionists were holed up in their homes being intimidated by the nasty nationalists. The balance of power has, until very recently, been very much on the side of the unionists. Civil rights were not easily won by nationalists.

I absolutely expect protestants (which, by the way, is not synonymous with unionists) to not be bigoted, in the same way I expect catholics to not be bigoted. The past should be left in the past, preferably after we have learned not to repeat the mistakes. Continuing to have sectarian, intimidatory events is not in the spirit of peace and reconciliation.

The vast majority of protestants and catholics in Northern Ireland just want to live their lives peacefully. However, there are sectarian bigots on both sides. The unionist bigots use the 12th as a vehicle to publicly display their bigotry.

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StoneofDestiny · 12/07/2019 21:11

ceilihouse

Unusual - The Orange Order specifically vans its members marrying Catholics.

I think anybody would be hard pressed to find any Orange marchers with any comprehensive knowledge of British or Irish history. The ignorance of many of them is staggering.

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Moralitym1n1 · 12/07/2019 21:11

Nope, not buying this bullshit. we all know full well why they are burning it and what it represents. It's pure gaslighting to try and suggest otherwise.

How many bonfire building grass roots unionists do you know and have you asked that?

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StoneofDestiny · 12/07/2019 21:11

bans not vans 🙄

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Moralitym1n1 · 12/07/2019 21:13

They burn the Irish flag, it is my countries flag. I don't care their reasons for doing so, it's disrespectful.

That just demonstrates your ignorance and lack of understanding of the issues in northern Ireland. You have not grown up in an environment where flags and colours represent unionism Vs republicanism including the paramilitary and terrorist factions; and it shows.

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ceilihouse · 12/07/2019 21:13

@Voila212 my flag and my people too, and damn fuckin proud of it,

Bigots the lot of them, I grew up in the troubles on the border, republic side, I remember the soldiers pointing guns in the car at us as young children, being jeered at, it instilled such a hatred and such a wrong hatred it shamed me of the English and it was so wrong for me to think or even feel that, but the fear of those days I'll never forget,

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Voila212 · 12/07/2019 21:13

' A little bias'. 😦 seriously!!! You cant make invading, murdering, stealing, starving sound worse then it actually is.

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PierreBezukov · 12/07/2019 21:14

Actually, some of them know history quite well. A couple of years ago I attended a history talk in my local Orange Hall about the reformation. The speaker (a member of the Blacks) gave a rundown of history from the Reformation to the present day. The entire hall was lined with exhibition panels about reformation and church history.

Be careful of assuming ignorance and bigotry or others might just assume it of you.

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PierreBezukov · 12/07/2019 21:15

Yes, there certainly is a little bias in how Irish history is taught in Irish schools - that's all I said, just as there will be a little bias in how British history is taught in British schools.

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ceilihouse · 12/07/2019 21:15

@StoneofDestiny apologies I was hastily typing my Dh is Protestant born with family members OO, I have tried to edit post but can't figure out how

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StoneofDestiny · 12/07/2019 21:18

pierre
Hardly a balanced history then was it - not just the content, but given it was delivered by a member of The Blacks.
I don't assume ignorance and bigotry of members of the LOL - I've witnessed it and been subject to it.

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StoneofDestiny · 12/07/2019 21:20

ceilihouse
Thought it was 'unusual'.

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Voila212 · 12/07/2019 21:23

Your right morality, I haven't ( thank god), but with that mentality then nothing will ever change. The past needs to be remembered but let go off otherwise there is no hope. These Marches just continue to cause a divide, how would unionist feel if the roles were reversed and they had to endure days of marches to celebrate rebuplicans and burning of the British flag in their towns. Then they would have a reason to feel threatened.

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Moralitym1n1 · 12/07/2019 21:25

You cant make invading, murdering, stealing, starving sound worse then it actually is.

Your country men would've done exactly the same if they were in the stronger position; and as I've pointed out, they did exactly that the America.

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Moralitym1n1 · 12/07/2019 21:28

how would unionist feel if the roles were reversed

The same way they feel when sinn Fein tries to make Irish an equal.language in northern Ireland, crows about soon getting a majority in northern Ireland and destroying the state their great grand parents fought for?

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LaurieMarlow · 12/07/2019 21:28

That just demonstrates your ignorance and lack of understanding of the issues in northern Ireland

No. It’s fucking mind blowing really.

It is immensely offensive to burn another countries flag, the vast majority of the world would agree with that. There is no justification that makes that ok, ever.

Do you get that?

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Moralitym1n1 · 12/07/2019 21:30

celebrate rebuplicans and burning of the British flag in their towns

Republicans do burn British flags on some occasions.

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Moralitym1n1 · 12/07/2019 21:33

@LaurieMarlow

Did you grow up in northern Ireland during the troubles?

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Crocodilesoup · 12/07/2019 21:35

Isthisafreename thank you for your response - can you tell me what list you ate referring to beliw? I'm confused
I posted an opposing viewpoint to the events you referred to, as your list suggested the poor underdog unionists were holed up in their homes being intimidated by the nasty nationalists

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Streamside · 12/07/2019 21:35

"I think anybody would be hard pressed to find any Orange marchers with any comprehensive knowledge of British or Irish history. The ignorance of many of them is staggering." I'm not going to look at this thread again but this type of sheer sectarianism is disgraceful.

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Moralitym1n1 · 12/07/2019 21:36

Yes, there certainly is a little bias in how Irish history is taught in Irish schools - that's all I said, just as there will be a little bias in how British history is taught in British schools.

I agree, though a little is probably an understatement Wink.

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PierreBezukov · 12/07/2019 21:41

Stone i didn't say it was a balanced history. But it was detailed history and knowledge and a desire to learn history was evident. Someone, I can't remember if it was you, assumed a complete ignorance of history in Orange lodges. I was just pointing out that wasn't my experience.

Let's not get too heated eh.

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Moralitym1n1 · 12/07/2019 21:41

Hmm, what if we started burning effigies of Ian and Arlene in the Republic. How would you feel about that?

It's not about the Republic of Ireland !!!!
It's not about you!!

It is about Sinn Fein, the IRA, the INLA, the continuity IRA, the real IRA ..... They use that flag. That's it.

You are so unbelievably fkg ignorant.

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Isthisafreename · 12/07/2019 21:44

@Crocodilesoup - Isthisafreename thank you for your response - can you tell me what list you ate referring to beliw? I'm confused

Apologies. I'm not surprised you're confused. I put an @ in, followed by a carriage return and my phone autocorrected to @Crocodilesoup

My response was addressed to @Moralitym1n1 who posted a list of events.

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Onesailwait · 12/07/2019 21:45

stoneofDestiny I couldn't agree more my dad was a master in the orange Lodge and all of my male family members on my dad's side a members of the orange Lodge. I married a Catholic so none of them speak to me and when my dad passed away I went to his funeral to pay my respects they all started singing the sash at me and said disgusting things about my children. Just awful awful people

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