12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

[Moralitym1n1]

Except the marching and intimidation were going on long before there was any threat to their dominant position.

When would you say there began to be a threat to their dominant position (or position at all)?

Soon after plantation when they were regularly attacked, burned out, killed?

During the Jacobite war?

During the Wolf Tone rebellion?

During the Easter rising?

During the home rule movement?

[Moralitym1n1]

I’d have more sympathy for their position if they ceased to burn effigies of key figures belonging to their neighbours.

You are taking about people who feel threatened, under siege and militant.

And for the sake of argument, both 'sides' burn effigies and flags.

[Crocodilesoup]

Many Protestant Christians wouldn't take part in a mass - I don't think you'd be allowed to actually from the Catholic side, the bread and wine bit, if you aren't Catholic. Going into a Catholic Church service is another matter. Ecumenism not big with the OO I'm guessing.

[Voila212]

Yes Morality it did start with the plantations, when Scottish protestants were brought to northern Ireland and stole the land and homes of the Irish Catholic farmers on the orders of king James 1. These farmers were removed from their homes, treated like criminals and basically left to starve. Great history to be celebrating.

[Crocodilesoup]

(I'm not by the way piglet saying that OO members don't hate Catholics, I'm sure a lot of them do, but the fact that they are told not to take part in a service from a different religious belief is not evidence of this)

[minesasaugagesupper]

Saw upthread something about the English sending the Planters. The Planters were mostly Scottish - just saying. Also, they were both Catholics and Protestants. Seems to have been air brushed from history, that little nugget of information.

[Moralitym1n1]

Great history to be celebrating.

What nationality are you?

Because if its British, that has to be the most uproariously unaware and ironic comment ever.

[LaurieMarlow]

You are taking about people who feel threatened, under siege and militant.

Frankly where I’m standing it’s very hard to see them as victims. Despite you playing that card like it’s going out of fashion.

Also the ‘but they do it too’ card, beloved of NI politics generally.

Burning effigies is always a hateful and disgusting thing to do, regardless of who is doing it.

[Moralitym1n1]

when Scottish protestants.

They weren't just Scottish.

And the people who wanted to get out of Scotland very likely wanted to because Britain had worked it's magic there from even before Culloden.

[Piglet89]

@Crocodilesoup

Many Protestant Christians wouldn't take part in a mass - I don't think you'd be allowed to actually from the Catholic side, the bread and wine bit, if you aren't Catholic.

CHOOSING not to is completely distinguishable from being a member of an organisation that actually PROHIBITS you from doing so. Like, attending Mass?!

The question really has to be WHY the Order prohibits members from event attending Mass. It is because it is an anti-Catholic organisation.

Do not try to disguise this blatantly bigoted clause of the Orange Order’s rules by raising issues of “ecumenism”.

To paraphrase Father Jack: “That would NOT be an ecumenical matter”.

[Voila212]

No morality I'm Irish and unlike the British schools we are taught the complete history between Britain and Ireland in great detail. Unfortunately ye seem to gloss over the abuse that was orchestrated by Britain in Ireland for hundreds of years or not know it at all.

[Moralitym1n1]

Despite you playing that card like it’s going out of fashion.

No, I'm.just trying to instill empathy in people who are ignorant and lack it.

I actually it's all unfortunate and have sympathy for both sides (except where they moved into nimning and slaughtering other people) but i think blaming descendants of British settlers for the resulting situation from the actions of the British crown and then empire is ignorant. Britain created this situation here - people will always act like territorial apes.

[Moralitym1n1]

*I actually think

[Voila212]

No the majority were Sottish but you're right they were others also but they all invaded another country, stole the land and persecuted the Irish.

[AgileLass]

And the people who wanted to get out of Scotland very likely wanted to because Britain had worked it's magic there from even before Culloden.

Wait, the Ulster Plantation happened because Scottish people wanted to get away from “Britain”?? Even though it happened before the Anglo-Scottish Union? Quick, someone tell the DUP!

Oh no wait, you’re talking shite

[Streamside]

Interesting to see how much emphasis is being placed on the burning of effigies.I've vever witnessed this ever and I know many Orangemen who attend Catholic masses but obviously do not take the sacrament..
Being a Protestant Unionist I'm well used to the type of comments expressed in this thread to date but I would remind people how much of it is no more than hate speech which does none of us any favours. 100,000 anti Catholic bigots will not assemble at Scarva tomorrow and any suggestion otherwise is to demonise an entire community.

[Moralitym1n1]

No morality I'm Irish and unlike the British schools we are taught the complete history between Britain and Ireland in great detail.

No, you're taught a biases, republican history.

I have a degree in Irish history and have been part of Ireland-US political leadership programmes post uni, with young people from all over Ireland and political representatives from all parties in northern Ireland. So don't try to 'teach' me Irish history, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Unfortunately ye seem to gloss over the abuse that was orchestrated by Britain in Ireland for hundreds of years or not know it at all.

Britain.

Britain.

And I haven't glossed over it at all.

I've pointed out that unionists have been put in this position by Britain. People will take whatever opportunities and privileges they get. Look at Americans.

[AgileLass]

I’m sure not everyone attending bonfires and parades is a hateful sectarian bigot, but anyone attending a bonfire that burns flags, election posters or effigies, or has the delightful KAT signs, is at the very least endorsing hateful sectarianism.

[Moralitym1n1]

*biased

[Crocodilesoup]

Piglet, do you think the type of people joining the orange order were at any risk of heading off to the occasional mass and being influenced into tolerant behaviour towards their fellow countrymen, were it not for this rule? I don't know why it's banned but I don't expect the rules of the OO to make any sense frankly.

[Fluggy]

I'm from NI

I'm 30 years old and Protestant

I've never been to a bonfire in my life

I've no idea what the big deal is, and for the most part - it seems to give the undesirables the perfect excuse to act even worse than usual

Sickens me

[Streamside]

"No the majority were Sottish but you're right they were others also but they all invaded another country, stole the land and persecuted the Irish"

And do these people,of which my family is one, deserve to be demonised.On twitter I'm frequently told to go back to Scotland

[LaurieMarlow]

Interesting to see how much emphasis is being placed on the burning of effigies.I've vever witnessed this ever

And yet it happens, it’s well documented, so you not witnessing it isn’t hugely relevant.

We all know all orangemen don’t do this. But some do. And the rest still align themselves with an organisation that does it despite all the shock, horror, ‘I’ve never seen it’ protestation.

[Moralitym1n1]

Wait, the Ulster Plantation happened because Scottish people wanted to get away from “Britain”?? Even though it happened before the Anglo-Scottish Union? Quick, someone tell the DUP!

Oh no wait, you’re talking shite grin

You think that that settlement was England's first moment of influence or control over Scotland, their very first impact on Scottish people's lives???

When did the hammer of the Scots operate?

And you say I'm taking shite?

Catch a grip.

[Crocodilesoup]

These threads move quickly from holding those guilty of sectarian bigoted behaviour responsible for that, to holding all Protestants in NI responsible for all the actions of the past. I think that is no more fair than in the future holding all nationalists responsible for the actions of the IRA.
It is massively complex and very easy to judge from the outside, and very hard to see clearly from the inside.