12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

[Crocodilesoup]

Streamside, I've done what you've been told to do, so maybe that would make someone out there on Twitter happy!

[Yessers]

I'm in Northern Ireland. I have never been to a parade and none of my friends or family go to parades. It is for a small number of idiots.

[Isthisafreename]

@Moralitym1n1

Soon after plantation when they were regularly attacked, burned out, killed?

By the native Irish whose land they had stolen? I would say that was probably expected resistance. Most people won't just hand over their property without some bit of resistance.

During the Jacobite war?

You mean the English war between different claimants to the throne in England?

During the Wolf Tone rebellion?
You mean the one that was viciously put down by British forces?

During the Easter rising?
There were no engagements in Ulster. Again, viciously put down by the British establishment.

During the home rule movement?
I agree, they did everything possible, legal and illegal, to resist home rule. However, they were mainly supported by the british establishment in their endeavours.

Of course, the resistance of the native population to unionist rule might have had something to do with having their land stolen, having their religion outlawed, with discrimination institutionalised by the penal laws, being starved into submission etc.

Ensuring partition boundaries maximised land, while minimising the likelihood of a nationalist majority, certainly wouldn't have helped. Nor would gerrymandering electoral boundaries to ensure unionist majorities in northern elections. Denying nationalist civil rights in terms of jobs, housing etc was not particularly pleasant either. Add to that the sectarian intimidation during the 12th on an ongoing basis that meant catholics fled their homes on an annual basis. Yeah, the poor unionists, they had it tough.

[Isthisafreename]

@Crocodilesoup - These threads move quickly from holding those guilty of sectarian bigoted behaviour responsible for that, to holding all Protestants in NI responsible for all the actions of the past.

I haven't seen any posts holding all protestants responsible for anything. The criticism is reserved for those who are participating in sectarian, intimidatory behaviour.

[Voila212]

Republican history' now that made me laugh, no I was taught history just the facts. I'm not trying to teach you history but I actually find it quite sad that someone with your supposedly knowledge of Irish history can not be appalled by what your country man has done in the past. They invaded another country, they robbed their land, they abused and murdered the people, they left them starve but it's the unionst who feel threatened.
'People will take whatever opportunities and privileges they get. Look at Americans.' That's ok then, all is forgiven..
Do you think it's ok, that unionist continue to celebrate with these Marches after what they did streamline. This happened hundreds of years ago yet the marches still go on.

[Crocodilesoup]

Isthisafreename you have literally just posted about how unionists haven't "had it tough" and they are being viewed negatively by you by virtue of their birth not any acts of bigotry against nationalists! It's your type of post I'm talking about! What is the solution then for someone born Protestant in NI (and who suffered from growing up in the troubles with all the fear this brought to their childhood) other than not being a bigot, how can they make recompense for the wrongs of the past? Do we expect all British people to make up for the (many) wrongs of the Bristish empire?

[Voila212]

Also could you imagine if we in the republic of Ireland had huge bonfires throughout the counties with the British flag draped all over it. There would be uproar, it's disrespectful to burn another countries flag. Yet let's not upset the unionist.

[StoneofDestiny]

The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation that revels in prolonging ancient conflict and hatred of Catholics. Most Protestants have nothing to do with the Orange Order, and many outside of NI and the urban central belt of Scotland have never even heard of them.
They are a bigoted relic of the past that are hell bent on taking their bigotry through the generations.
They are an embarrassment to any right thinking person and no intelligent, civilised, peace loving person would want to be associated with them on any level.

[Moralitym1n1]

They invaded another country, they robbed their land, they abused and murdered the people, they left them starve

And then your countrymen did the same to the native Americans.

[MillicentMartha]

I’m a bit shocked that I’ve spent my life thinking the ‘Glorious 12th’ was the start of the grouse hunting season in August and I’ve never associated it with 12th July. I hope I haven’t been unintentionally offending people all these years.

[Moralitym1n1]

That was my point about Americans. And they don't need to celebrate because they have a relatively tiny number of native Americans; they're not 50:50 in the us with them, and in a tiny minority within a larger state that had a constitutional claim on their state.

[Poloshot]

History, heritage and tradition. Dry your eyes

[Moralitym1n1]

*has

They don't feel under threat, they won; the unionists haven't, that's their problem.

[Poloshot]

@MillicentMartha they're both known by the same phrase.

[Moralitym1n1]

Also could you imagine if we in the republic of Ireland had huge bonfires throughout the counties with the British flag draped all over it. There would be uproar, it's disrespectful to burn another countries flag. Yet let's not upset the unionist.

But in this case they burn the tricolour because it represents republicanism Inc the IRA in northern Ireland; not because it represents the Republic of Ireland.
Do you honestly not understand that?

[Moralitym1n1]

@Isthisafreename

You have spectacularly missed the point of my response to your statement.

You referred to them not needing to because their dominance was certain.

I responded that at no time was it certain, they have always felt threatened.

You have totally missed that that was my point.

[LaurieMarlow]

Do you honestly not understand that?

Do you honestly not get how fucking disrespectful burning another country’s flag is, regardless of what it’s supposed to represent.

[LaurieMarlow]

Hmm, what if we started burning effigies of Ian and Arlene in the Republic. How would you feel about that?

[ceilihouse]

I'm Irish, Catholic

Why do they feel the need to burn our flag

Why call my children catholic paddy's

Will a United ireland fix this, I don't think so?

My Protestant and orange order husband and family hate this day, not all of them hate us in that way, thought but it's a horrible day for us, run mostly by ignorant people with no clue about the history and just use it as a day of drinking, fires, chanting shit, and being fuckin fools, I'm sure most of them if not all, go out and get pissed and celebrate st Patrick's day because they are Irish!

This shit needs to be stopped and filed away in the history books where it belongs,

[ceilihouse]

@LaurieMarlow or we started a day of celebration for the IRA, well what's good for the goose is good for the gander and all that jazz

And I'm damn sure they will be a hell of a lot more catholics out celebrating than orange men today,

[GymKitJen]

Schools, housing and even graveyards are segregated in ni!

[Voila212]

They burn the Irish flag, it is my countries flag. I don't care their reasons for doing so, it's disrespectful.

[PierreBezukov]

Let's not forget it was an Irish man who actually invited the English to invade I love that little nugget of history.

It's a little more complex than 'they invaded, pillaged, oppressed'. And there is no doubt that the Irish version of history taught in schools is naturally a little biased. However.

I'm an NI Protestant and have never willingly gone to a Twelfth parade. (I went as a child when staying with a friend and all I remember is hating the deafening Lambeg drums).

Last night at 10.30pm I enjoyed a fireworks display from my bedroom window - coming from a nearby estate where the (rather small and pitiful) bonfire was lit. On year I inadvertedly ended up at the bonfire (it's on the route of a favourite walk of mine) and stayed to enjoy the fireworks - it had the atmosphere of a family event. There are Catholics that live on that estate.

This morning I was rudely awoken from my sleep by the sound of flutes being played out of tune and drums being banged out of rhythm. The local bands leaving to parade to the 'field' where the main event takes place. The cacophony was blissfully interrupted every now and again by the occasional welcome sound of an accordion band playing a hymn, and even an odd couple of bagpipes (thankfully just a couple playing a duet as I can't stand a while band of them).

I glanced out the window a few times, but otherwise ignored them, as did my two sets of Catholic neighbours that live on either side.

It's a minority sport here in NI, most people just ignore it and get on with their lives.

[FromEden]

But in this case they burn the tricolour because it represents republicanism Inc the IRA in northern Ireland; not because it represents the Republic of Ireland

Nope, not buying this bullshit. we all know full well why they are burning it and what it represents. It's pure gaslighting to try and suggest otherwise.

[Voila212]

'This shit needs to be stopped and filed away in the history books where it belongs.'
THIS