That no-one warned us about the horror of narcissists?

[iwunderwhy]

Am I wrong to be really angry that the medical and psychiatric communities let the public down by not educating us decades ago on narcissism, and for not calling it the serious F'g mental illness it is. Narcissism - the real deal (not vanity etc) is shocking, devastating, and dangerous AND there's mounting evidence its increasing. It's like a narcissism tsunami ...Is it me or WTF??

....My first job my boss terrorized an entire dept and lied about it. One girl had a complete breakdown because it bought back childhood memories. I never knew there was a name for someone like my boss.

Our understanding of mental illness should be getting better, and we should be working on improving the diagnosis, and get serious about educating the rest of us about what we’re dealing with.

Just because real Narcs can’t be healed becoz they never seek help, doesn’t mean the rest of us should have to keep getting blindsided by the bloody lot of them.

Yadnbu

I can't express how much I agree and will devour this thread when I have time.

I am not the first MH professional to suggest people with PD presentation including NPD can change, maybe I'm wrong and should tell the specialist network I work with that. To suggest otherwise demonstrates the prejudice that exists and thinking in terms of something being treatable relates to the medical model. So no, PDs may not be "treatable" with medication however their are many psychological therapies that are useful.

but @KittyMarion

Most can never be healed if they by definition will never go to therapy, or because the problem is always someone else, or they spend all the time lying or 'framing' the other person. Also my therapy friends say their colleagues in the industry refuse to treat extreme narcissism as its just a waste of time, and you'd just be taking their money... assuming they pay you!.

Big difference between people with diagnosed NPD (and actually other personality disorders) and people that are just generally unpleasant. Most of the people labelled on here and elsewhere are the second not the first. It's not a common enough (diagnosed) condition to warrant a public health campaign!
However what we could all do with it education on emotional intelligence and self care, on assertiveness and taking care of mental health in general. That would set everyone up much better to deal with life in general and nasty bastards specifically.

There's no way an NHS service could refuse to treat someone because it was a waste of time. The CCGs fund mental health teams to work with people with severe and enduring mental health difficulties. As has already been said most people with NPD or strong traits do not have this diagnosis so there is no way service users with diagnoses of depression for example could be denied treatment. Narcissistic men do seek treatment especially in crisis. We will have to agree to disagree, what you are saying has not been my clinical experience.

I agree historysock

My point is Mental Health Teams are treating people with NPD they just don't have that label. There are many people who are currently mislabelled in my area. EUPD is flavour of the month and alarmingly very young people are being given this diagnosis by psychiatrists at single session assessments.

YANBU
in fact, you've inspired me to plan some conversations about this with my children. Their absent father is one (my psychotherapist agreed with my armchair diagnosis!) and I dread to consider them having one as a partner.

I think mummadeeze raises a good point. A lot of us were brought up believing most people were good and kind and to give people the benefit of the doubt.

When someone comes along who is charming, sociable, appears to be loving and kind and sweeps you off your feet, you tend to 'not see' the red flags because you're a) largely happy and b) doing exactly what you've done in healthy relationships and giving someone the benefit of the doubt. The problem in the case of narcissists or in fact anyone who doesn't have your best interests at heart is that they are so manipulative, they are getting you into the position they want you to be in.

You see it all the time on the relationships board here. People often see the issue and don't want to or can't acknowledge it.

I do think we all need to bring up our dcs understanding what a healthy relationship looks like and maintaining our own boundaries. It's hard and I've made the mistake before and can see how easy it is.

I agree op.

I was never taught or just made aware that some people have different personality types! Which may adversely affect people.

I've got a personal family full of damaged people and disturbing character traits.

But it was Mil whom I couldn't grasp, get near too, couldn't understand.

I went into a relationship with now dh in total innocence and yes I absolutely wish 14 years ago I was aware of a narc personality.

I have even come to realise my dh who still had issues expressing himself and saying no, went naturally 'grey rock' with his mum.

I will certainly be explaining this to dc as they get older!!

I see myself throwing myself agaisnt a cliff since met Mil....

And as pp said, there is no way she'd ever get a diagnosis! No way she never contemplates her behaviour!

Emotional terrorists... Good term.

It's the manipulation and feeling that you don't know why someone's doing something.

Alterior motive you can't grasp...

Those I work with who are very narcissistic have been through years of treatment

I work in forensic MH (offenders with MH diagnosis) we expect them to follow a plan for them to move forward

Those who are very narcissistic less so not because they are let off but by forcing them to do so becomes detrimental to them, to the team and to others around them - it doesn’t work and just as we think it is it backfires

I have experienced narcissists who have managed to split highly trained and experienced professional teams. Those who are very narcissistic are very very tricky to work (along with EUPD) with though at times surprisingly have shown levels of empathy that we didn’t expect - it’s always best to keep an open mind the unpredictable becomes the predictable just we are never sure how it will play out

I agree with you Enthusiasm. A lot of evidence suggests that people with PD type presentations will need 3-5 episodes of psychological therapy.

They could charm the birds off the trees, but after a few months their true personality comes out, you will gradually feel you are worth nothing, and wonder why, when you know you have done nothing wrong, belittling you makes them feel powerful, and worth more than you are, then comes the silent treatment, for no apparent reason, but it is hard to equate the two sides of that person, so you give them the benefit of the doubt, because they are so nice to you again, and it starts all over again

@kittyMarion this is a genuine thread about Narcissism. You you keep pushing yourself but this isn't about you -or maybe it is-. It's bollocks that 3-5 "episodes" of therapy can cure them. You cannot cure a lack of empathy, or lack of moral code, pathological lying or plain cruelty.. So pretty please put an ad in Craigslist or something and let the rest of us discuss this honestly.

It's a public forum so if I want to post I will. I am not "pushing myself". If you want an echo chamber I suggest you make an private FB group and then you can only allow people who agree with you to post.

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed - do you have experience of male and female NPDs?

This is a really interesting thread and makes me think that yes, we should be talking to our children about behavioural boundaries in other people. Particularly when they come to form their own intimate relationships.

I am so grateful that there is more light shed on issues like coercive control, and for its criminalisation.

The problem with having a "bar" of how you expect to be treated in a relationship in terms of having a relationship with people with narc traits, is that they don't drop below the bar to start with. They are wonderful, charming, lovebomb you - they suck you in, they make you feel so wonderful, so adored.
Then it starts - slowly, once in a while - but they still use the charm, the love bombing, the wonderfulness to suck you back in and make you think that it was a one-off, a mistake, they'll never do it again, they're so sorry, they don't know how they could have done it. So of course, with all the positives, most people aren't going to dump them at that point, they'll take it at face value and expect that the charmer is telling the truth.
Of course they're not - they're just reeling you in tighter.

And so I agree with the OP that there should be more articles etc. about people who do things like this - including refusal to accept that first "mistake" - because most people who are in love (or fancy themselves to be) will forgive one mistake, not realising that it opens the gate for more.

I don't know whether it's treatable or not - but I agree that by virtue of the "sufferer" refusing to ever admit fault or blame, it's hard to see how they would ever agree to treatment to find out!

ThumbWitchesAbroad totally agree with everything you have said, and it is very hrd to get these people out of your head,, trying to fathom out why they have treated you the way they have
I still think about this everyday,and the only way i can try to stop it is to think about the worst aspects of the relationship ,and be glad i am out of it,
It does mess with your head for a very long time,
It is trying to work out which side of them is the real one
Jekyl and Hyde come to mind
They game play, i feel i want revenge, and i am still angry

Thinking about the different perspective Kitty has compared to others on this thread - I suppose by the nature of your role, Kitty, you'll come across narcissists who are at the point where the need for intervention is hard to deny. It's pretty different to the successful narcissist, whose strategies are working for them no matter how much harm they do to others. A narcissist in the wild is a different beast - and impossible to convince that they are the problem.

Mother is a full-blown extreme narcissist. She also has extreme psychosis and has been detained in various institutions. My father is her passive, willing, enabler.

Most people have no clue what a "proper" narcissist is like, and capable of, and the term is definitely thrown around far too much.

Sadly, the Stately Homes threads detail many instances of actual narcissism, and the ingrained pain it causes of many years, and decades.

Schema Focused Therapy, Cognitive Analytic Therapy, Psychodynamic Therapy to name a few.

Haha, ok, if you say so. I saw firsthand the effects of these "treatments", and the blowback. I also saw firsthand the effects, and blowback, of ECT.

It's about time it was admitted the so-called professionals don't have a fucking clue how to treat narcissism.

I absolutely agree with you OP.

I don't want to get hung up on labels. Around 1% of the population is thought to have some sort of sociopathy/psychopathy/anti-social personality disorder. All sociopaths are narcissists (although not always vice versa). Whether it is due to genetics or major trauma in chlidhood or whatever, they are quite different to the rest of the population. Their brains are literally wired differently.

They have no conscience
They have no empathy.
They like to control and dominate.
They are, however, emotionally intelligent in the sense of being able to read others' emotions in order to manipulate them as necessary.

Their lack of conscience is actually quite a major thing to get your head around if you are a 'normal' person with a conscience. But it's crucial.

Unlike 'ordinary' people, brain imaging shows that when these people are shown happy faces they feel negtive emotions. When they are shown sad or fearful face they feel positive emotions. This is why they act nasty. Causing others suffering, even in very subtle little ways, makes them happy. Here stands your class bully, your sabotaging colleague, your abusive partner.

They can't form truly meaningful, loving relationships and so they get very bored and can only really get their kicks from high thrill activities (many have addictions) and manipulating others. Life to them is a game in which they relieve their boredom or generate their twisted kind of pleasure by manipulating the people around them and watching the results. When you ask "why on earth would they do that", when they do something mean, this is the answer.

This is why it is so important to better educate ourselves about the existence of this 1% of humans who hide in plain sight.

If we don't realise they exist, we misattribute our own emotions and motivations to them. This is very dangerous because they do not share them and so we make mistakes dealing with them.

We tend to give them second chances or the benefit of the doubt when we shouldn't.

We spend too long trying to fix them when we can't.

We spend too long trying to figure them out when it's simple: they lack a conscience, lack empathy, and are only nice to you (they can be very, very nice!) when it will get them what they want.

We try to get even with them when we can't. They love your anger as well as your unhappiness because it shows they have an effect on you.

If we saw them for what they are we would do the only thing possible: walk away and engage as little as humanly possible. Thus they lose their power. Also we would warn other people, and they don't like being rumbled because it spoils their game.

I could write more.

Spot on Antibles ignore is the best way if you can, If you can being the operative words, they try to suck you back in with their charming [when they want something]ways
No empathy, no conscience, no boundaries ,risk takers, and usually no respect for women