That no-one warned us about the horror of narcissists?

[iwunderwhy]

Am I wrong to be really angry that the medical and psychiatric communities let the public down by not educating us decades ago on narcissism, and for not calling it the serious F'g mental illness it is. Narcissism - the real deal (not vanity etc) is shocking, devastating, and dangerous AND there's mounting evidence its increasing. It's like a narcissism tsunami ...Is it me or WTF??

One Article... www.nytimes.com/2016/02/14/opinion/narcissism-is-increasing-so-youre-not-so-special.html

will look for more. Thank you all.

I know someone who-

1. Feels he is always right
2. Needs constant positive validation that he is right and that he is a great guy
3. Domineering
4. Can be very dismissive and shockingly insensitive but can't see it.

Don't know if he is a narc or just an asshole but there is definitely something wrong

I wonder whether a healthy narcissism is something that gets instilled into us socially? Just listening to chums talking about diets and weight lifting and training and it's so focussed and self-aware - which gives them healthy outcomes, so it's fantastic in that respect - but it's centred on them. But that's what we get told, "follow your dreams" and "you do you" and things like that, and I wonder if your everyday narcissist - rather than someone with a MH condition - is someone who's maybe taking those memes rather too much to heart?

There is so much misinformation on here it's laughable.

NPD is a treatable condition and is distinct from sociopath/psychopath.

It is rarely diagnosed I think, because people with these issues usually present to services when they are in crisis and suicidal so they frequently get diagnosed with EUPD or depression (in my experience).

Psychiatrists are reluctant to use this label and conversations I have in my team, they will say, if I were to diagnose accurately......

People with NPD are coping with feelings of utter worthlessness and develop a cage of contempt and admiration to protect them from their core pain. They are not horrible, psychopaths. It is however very difficult to be on the other side of that contempt.

iwunderwhy, i don't understand your point about it being a label, but you claiming it's a serious mental health issue.

PDs do come under the spectrum of a mental health disorder or rather a condition.

You have a label and then it will vary to how it manifests.

People who have PDs are not responsible for how it manifests, as such.

kittymarion
"They are not horrible, psychopaths"

Psychopaths are not responsible for being psychopaths. The two conditions are comparable.

@KittyMarion what’s the treatment for a NPD?

Schema Focused Therapy, Cognitive Analytic Therapy, Psychodynamic Therapy to name a few.

And how would you get a narcissist to admit they have the disease? They will not admit ANY wrongdoing or medical conditions!
My STBXH is taking meds, Counselling etc and still professes” there’s nothing wrong with me”. So, in his mind, he is not ill, therefore needs no medical help! Try living with that misinformation!
All the while destroying everything and everyone around him with his chaos and needs, including his children.

Anyone have any experience with a ex who is a narcissist and how they are with their children and what kind of things they are likely to do. The other day he told me he never even wanted he children in the first place

I was married to a narcissist to personality disorder (clinically diagnosed by not one, but THREE professionals) And he wasn't even malignant!

It is extremely hard to convey how not quite human they are and how much damage they do.

To me the number one damage they do comes from 'you are not the Boss of me'.

So it doesn't matter how good your suggestion is, or sensible, or reasonable, or what a nice outing or idea it is - 'you are not the boss of me' means he has got to win. He will destroy to win and be in control, he will cause World War 3 in order not to be wrong. Meet you half way? Treat you like an equal? Consider your point of view? Think about how you might feel about something? That is death to a narcissist. Don't know why, but it is.

This 'you are not the Boss of me' to destructive lengths, pretty much covers every put down, secret, hidden life, contempt, cheating, resistance, refusal to listen, dismissal of you. They have an overwhelming need to be in control.

@Kel801 narcissists only present when they are about to receive some serious consequences like the loss of a job or marriage through their behaviour.

The treatment of a narcissist is 'benign confrontation'. The old model of paradigms focusing on fears and insecurities (see @KittyMarion) DO NOT WORK with narcissists. Narcissists will never drop their false self and get vulnerable, and they are extremely [covertly] aggressive in order to win. They run rings round 'classic' treatment, co-opting therapists who are focusing on their core pain. This is why it is a very bad idea to have couples counselling with a personality disordered person unless it is with a therapist who is specialised in narcissism, who will not hesitate in calling them out and will resist being manipulated into further abuse of the spouse. Yes they have core pain, but they are also abusive and this is more problematic.

@KittyMarion here is a link you might find useful: www.drgeorgesimon.com/learning-to-confront-benignly-and-effectively/

"I present some vignettes that depict how the art of therapeutic loving through benign confrontation works (I also provide a few examples in The Judas Syndrome). And in the coming weeks I’ll be giving some examples of how much more powerful it is to benignly call out behaviors than it is to vent frustration on or disparage a disturbed character. Disturbed characters love to shift the focus, blame others, evade issues, offer justifications, etc. – anything to avoid addressing and correcting the behaviors of concern. And they also like to get into a game of personal vindication, incessantly trying to make it look like you’re just trying to tear them down, and in turn trying to cut you down to size by outing your faults. Benignly and calmly making it only behavior, and more specifically the problematic behavior they’re displaying in the moment, changes the game."

Yes that you are not the boss of me thing. So true. And terrifying.

Self obsession is not the same thing - this is the crux of it. Because it is so supremely unreasonable. They will not ever seek advice or collaborate or cooperate because in their mind this is losing. The only times they may appear to do these things will be because they have an ulterior motive. It is extremely dangerous to accept a favour from a narcissist; this is never ever free.

It's difficult because unless you know you try to relate to them like a normal person and that doesn't work. But even when you understand what you're dealing with it's hard not to relate to them as a person because of course they are people. But you have to protect yourself first.

I totally identify with 'you are not the boss of me' both of my parents take this mentality. They failed to protect me as a child which caused me irreperable damage and they will not even discuss it with me beause I am so insignificant to them they wouldn't begin to consider hearing my point of view.

I read a really, really sad news story about a pensioner who shot dead his own great grandson with an illegal souped up air rifle, causing his death. Lied that the bullet had ricocheted when forensics proved he shot him directly in the stomach.

Went to prison for it and to this day refuses to apologise to his granddaughter for killing her 6 year old son or to explain what happened and why. Presumably because she is not the boss of him so why the fuck should he have to explain?

That is how narcissism feels to be on the receiving end of. No matter how much they hurt you or how wrong they were they will never, ever say sorry.

Having just left a relationship with a man I now know to be a narcissist- me having had therapy and researching the disorder in depth to recover, I have educated my daughter about it. I think it’s all we can do.

Actually, I'm plagued by Quora emails relating to npd. It's also all over Pinterest. Definitely a rise in the word use, if not the actual diagnosed disorder.

I only understood the term accurately when someone on MN (lol) asked me whether a relative of mine was dnpd. As far as I know, she's never been diagnosed, but my therapist certain ly believes she is!

Kitty I’ve found this thread illuminating, with many of the stories told being alarmingly similar to the experience I went through so I don’t know how you can say it’s full of laughably bad misinformation. The science behind all this is still emerging quickly and I don’t think any one viewpoint can be called right and another wrong at this point, certainly not laughably so. I’ve read and learned quite a bit about this over the last few years and you’re the first to say it’s treatable to any degree of success.

There's no treatment for NPD.

There are lots everywhere.

They have no empathy.

We should have been warned.

I warn my kids. More than anything, I want them to be happy, but mainly, avoid narcissistic cunts.

We all have narcissistic traits that will play out at times

Some people have lots of narcissistic traits that play out much of the time

I work with many who are narcissistic (work in MH) as often the diagnosis will be something else (that can be treated with medication)

MH is very very complex it’s really not up to professionals to explain and teach everyone apart form those they are working with/treating as it’s very individual to each person

I believe my is a narcissist, he presents himself as a man who would do anything for anyone, he was always telling me how wonderful he was ,and talked about the things he helped people with, it was all a front, he had no empathy, got into a rage when i questioned him about something so simple i was shocked at the angerhe has grown up children ,but told his son he never wanted children and wouldnt ever have any more, he was also very mean, and said things which he knew would upset me, even after knowing i had a very bad and cruel marriage,
He would give me the silent treatment then appear out of the blue as if nothing was wrong, eventually i couldn't stand the stress of it anymore, i ignore him if i ever see him, but he trues to talk to me as if we were best friends.
Lots of other not very nice things about him, also very secretive, i know almost nothing about his background except he had an abusive childhood,
I know i did nothing wrong and supported him through illness, but he made me feel worthless,
I am still affected by his treatment , after 3 years,

Also seems to have no boundaries, which i wont go into, but he diddn't like being questioned about anything, and got very angry, which was actually a bit frightening at times
If anyone treats you like this run in the other direction, you will be miserable,

Enthusiasm I found Craig Malikn’s book really good for understanding the sliding scale of narcissism, we all exist somewhere on the scale and go up and down depending on our lives.

As a pp has said, once it becomes detrimental to ones life, and those around them, that is where you have a real problem.

God the "you are not the boss of me" is exactly my ex. Terrifying.

I agree with PP s .. re education.. I’ll be educating my child .
I’m horrified, stunned and still in shock upon realising how bad my ( know I know ) narcissist ex was .
I was even going out of my mind and was at breaking point... bewildered and distressed ... what the hell is wrong here etc etc ..when I chanced upon a post here about this kind of behaviour.
I read everything I could about it and he ticked every box spectacularly .
Everything just clicked into place ...

Im now actually very frightened of him ...
I can’t believe my relationship with him looking back on it now ...
I was a shell of myself..
I’ll be a long time healing ...

What frightens me is if I told you his name ( obviously I won’t ) and suggested you google him ... you’d be absolutely shocked .
Mr Charming- a world beater and leader in his chosen field... adored publicly ... such a wonderful man ..
Behind closed doors was a very different man ... totally mentally abusive .

At the same time as I started to read up on this and make sense ( if one can ! ) An ex of his was extremely kind to me and reached out when she met me and realised I was his partner and asked me to take care of myself.
She came right out and said he’s emotionally abusive please get out ...

Also that he was so clever and skilled at it that it drip fed over the years and escalated hence us being duped and confused as it doesn’t start high scale or obvious...

I would cry sorely if my dd was ever to be in a situation like that .

That said I’m not broken just bent is my mantra .. I’ll repair and live my best life possible...
I’ll never date again though - far too frightened..

Hugs to all who have been there ...

Should say I’ll be forever grateful to his ex for doing what she did .... wonderful woman... it really helped .
Everything we suffered was carbon copy ... like he worked to a formula in his relationships .....

I asked this question because my friend discovered her ex had been arrested 3 times and (briefly) jailed AFTER they broke up. A horrible betrayal. Worse, we both agreed that even if he had told her he could have spun some highly believable lies and she might still not have figured out just how rancid he really was. Becoz she (who) could understand the full extent of being involved with someone she thought she was in a relationship with,.. while from the get go he was in an emotional knife fight. Everything he ever told her was a lie right down to his favourite colour. These “narcs” are often highly functioning; judges, lawyers, bankers, CEOs, politicians. People we give real power to. The lies, the emotional and/or physical violence, the gas-lighting is astronomical. They are emotional terrorists.