That no-one warned us about the horror of narcissists?

[iwunderwhy]

Am I wrong to be really angry that the medical and psychiatric communities let the public down by not educating us decades ago on narcissism, and for not calling it the serious F'g mental illness it is. Narcissism - the real deal (not vanity etc) is shocking, devastating, and dangerous AND there's mounting evidence its increasing. It's like a narcissism tsunami ...Is it me or WTF??

Yup, my DM also has an NPD diagnosis (from her alcohol keyworker, so I dunno, maybe they're not professional either?)

• that's not a snarky remark btw, I don't know what their MH qualifications are in order to make the diagnosis, but I do know that it's helped us enormously to be told that her behaviour is down to an complex and untreatable personality disorder rather than because she is a bad or evil person.

Obviously, it doesn't help with the behaviour....

I'm not sure about actual diagnosed narcissism, I see a lot of people on here who know or have dated narcissists before.

My ex definitely without a shadow of a doubt has some traits associated with narcissism. Not all. Whether that makes him one or not, I'm not qualified to say but he was an awful partner and had a lot of issues.

I don't think he'd ever even have gotten as far as a diagnosis as he was very manipulating and charming to the outside world. I'm sure he'd be able to convince a Dr there was nothing wrong with him.

That's what makes me think he probably is just an arsehole though, the fact he was able to portray such a different person to everyone else. These 'narcissistic traits' were only ever saved for me behind closed doors. I don't think a true narcissist realises they are in the wrong enough to change the way they behave in front of others.

Agree with PPs. Narcissism is massively over-diagnosed on MN. Everyone has narcissistic traits; very few people have them to the extent of NPD. Having narcissistic traits does not make you 'a narcissist': it makes you normal, unless you are at the extreme end of the spectrum.

Actual narcissism is rare. Arseholes being branded narcissists on mumsnet is very common.

We need more cultural awareness that it is a very bad idea to get into a relationship with people with certain traits. (This doesn't immediately help the people born to such parents, but it might help them decode what happened later on). It's useful to have some kind of shorthand symbol, like the Big Bad Wolf of old. In certain areas, including MN, "narc" has become that code word. I think it is useful to have this shorthand - whether or not you think "narc" is the idea way of representing the concept is almost beside the point.

Like some others here, understanding my exH's behaviour in terms of narcissistic traits was very helpful to me - it helped me understand that I couldn't do anything to fix the problems in our relationship, which were deeply rooted in his way of relating to the world. A decade down the line, it's irrelevant to me whether or not he would receive a clinical diagnosis of NPD. The framing as a "narc" was helpful, whether or not it was "right" in a strictly technical sense.

I do think it's important to make the distinction between someone who is narcissistic and someone who has NPD. I think it's possible to have many narcissistic traits without having a psychiatric condition. Or perhaps, like autism, there is a spectrum?

I have been reading into this recently as part of my studies, and the idea of a spectrum is emerging. To paraphrase a psychologist, "Some level of narcissism is desirable" (extreme too little and you are an "Echo") but it only gets diagnosed as NPD when it interferes with the ability to run a normal life.

I feel that young people should be educated more (and it may happen given the current climate) on what Mental Wellness looks and feels like. I feel that modern society encourages us to look to others for our self esteem - social media relies on how many "likes" or "followers" we have) and this is leaving us vulnerable to those - including those who might have stronger narcissistic traits - who seek to control our behaviours and strip away our self esteem.

Sorry - that's a bit deep for this time of the morning!

@OhFuckity - thinking of it as a spectrum might help you to get your head round your ex?

People are too hung up on whether people they dislike would qualify as narcissists.

Sometimes the word "selfish" will do. It's okay to end friendships and relationships just because the other person is incredibly selfish. You don't need to validate your decision with professional terminology. "He or she is a selfish poisonous prat" is enough! You don't need to justify removing them from your life by adding "I think he or she might be a narcissist"!

Great post bertieBotts. My mother has a lot of narcissistic traits. She probably has some sort of narcisstic/histrionic personality disorder. But when I talk to other people with similar parents it's easier to use the shorthand of "narc" as they know the sorts of behaviours I'm referring to. Or explaining to others why I haven't spoken to her in 5 years, it's an easy shorthand, look up narcissistic mother and it's basically that.
She'll never get a diagnosis because according to her, there's nothing wrong with her, it's everyone else being unfair to her.

My life and mental health was totally trashed last year by someone I had known, trusted and believed for a long time. He is out of my life and I do not need to label him. It was helpful to read about some of the traits associated with narcissism as it really helped me see that it was a relationship that would never have worked. The lies, the lies about lies, and the fact that ever single disagreement between us was turned around as a serious character flaw on my part, and always my fault were big factors. On top of this he triangulated with another woman, taking her to all the same places and having a nearly identical sexual repertoire with her (of an unconventional kind).
I have now discovered he was offering a BDSM experience to women in the area we met though a dating web site, which is pretty terrible when you consider that his idea of BDSM was inflicting pain regardless of the wishes of the other person.
A narcissist will leave you feeling that whatever happened it was all your fault, being able to apply the definition, even if it is not 100% correct has gone some way to restoring my self confidence.
When all the lies were discovered he became threatening and aggressive at the mention of counselling or therapy to help him get through life in the future, this was a very clear indication to me.

NPD is a full on, untreatable personality disorder. These people are dangerous destructive sociopaths, although that word is not generally used any more. There is no mistaking the real thing, although the Narc can (and does) disguise it very well. But the mask will always slip eventually.

It is estimated that up to 6% of the population are way up there on the psychopath scale, and within this stat will be the narcs. However, because of the nature of their personality disorder, they are highly unlikely to seek help because there is nothing wrong with them – it’s everybody else. They also consider themselves far cleverer than doctors and will manipulate any potential assessment.

There is no mistaking the real thing. This goes way beyond general arsehole behavior and selfishness. It’s terrifying.

KitKat1985
"I work in mental health. Narcissistic Personality Disorder (which is what I think your opening post refers to) is actually a pretty rare diagnosis still"

I find that there's a reluctance to diagnosis any personality disorder. Likewise attachment disorders.

I worked in Child Protection. We'd have abusive Parents assessed. It was often said that in the psychologist/psychiatrists opinion they had a PD, but it wasn't necessary to formally diagnose them, so they wouldn't.

NoneButOurselves, no, neither of your examples, alone, suggest Narcissism. There could easily be another explanation.

thinking of it as a spectrum might help you to get your head round your ex?

I guess so! It's part of the manipulation I suffered for years, still being confused as to why he was the way he was etc...

I don't label him a narcissist, I'm not qualified to do so. I know he shares some of the traits because I did a lot of reading when I got the courage to leave to reinforce my confidence in my decision because I wasn't sure of anything I did anymore.

To the outside world he was a brilliant person, confident etc... It's what I found very hard. It made me wonder if it was really my fault because everyone else thought he was great.

He'd never have cheated on me. I'd bet my life on it. But I knew it was never because of me or concern for how it would make me feel. It was because he didn't want to give anyone an excuse to think badly of him.

I'm rambling now! I'm still very confused by the whole thing years later. I guess it helps people to label so it takes away the blame that they've been wondering is theirs or not.

You can display narcissistic traits and behaviours without being a full blown narcissist. Most personality disorders go undiagnosed because the person lacks insight or it doesn't cause them any problems, it's the people around them who suffer.

Personality disorders are extremely destructive to the people on the receiving end and I think it's worth learning about how to identify people with these behaviours in order to protect yourself.

I was just going to say what kitkat said.

True diagnosable narcissistic personality disorder (if that's what you mean) is very rare much rarer than even diagnosis for psychopathology.

It's a term that gets used a lot but that's very different from someone who if sent for evaluation would actually end up with it as a diagnosis.

I think we should be getting taught not to look for illness or triggers in others but to have a standard by which we won't allow ourselves to be treated. To be strong in our belief that we deserve a minimum in our relationships and if that isn't met then we are better on our own than to waste years with people treating you like crap.

I think we should be getting taught not to look for illness or triggers in others but to have a standard by which we won't allow ourselves to be treated

Absolutely!

Of course that leaves a gap for children with parents who don't treat them well but the reality is that with most children it isn't until they get older and into the world that they realise the severity of their treatment so it's probably not a discussion for this thread.

I haven't rtft but I worked for a narcissist, I didn't know at the time but the therapist I went to afterwards told me that my female boss was indeed a narcissist. I have read into it a lot and she absolutely fits the bill. She destroyed my life for years. I am still feeling the effects years later. I suppose it would be good to know the signs so people don't become victims of narcissists. But I agree a narcissist will never seek a diagnosis as they are perfect surely?!

The difference is:
When you have lived with one, your life is swallowed by their narcissism. EVERYTHING is about them , they suck the life from you, your confidence, your kindness, you morph from being your own person to being their personal servant in every aspect of life...to the point that they break your spirit. Once you are at rock bottom and need help from them, they leave and you then have to ‘fix’ yourself and every other piece of chaos they have left for you, why they lie to anyone that will listen that you are the reason for the breakup.
I hope none of you disbelievers ever meet one. But, if you do you’ll then know the difference!

I feel quite strongly about this too OP, i started to see a Councillor after a break down of a 9 year relationship, after hearing me speak, it was my councillor that gave me a piece of paper with the word Narcissism written on it and to have a look on youtube and to talk about it the week after, I did and what i found is my ex partner was one, down to a tee, i did not realise at the time, but the more i thought about it, it made so much sense, the manipulation, charm and projecting, i was very upset and taken back by it and i had no idea.
i asked my councillor was it very obvious to him and he said its his job to spot these things.
Overall I now know how to handle him and how i speak to him, as we have 2 kids together, so its been helpful for me, i might of handled situations worst before i knew.

@user1486131602 - 100% true, this is what happened to me, but he left me with 2 kids to look after too, its been the lowest point of my life i have ever been in, but with councilling and a good year behind me, i would say im alot better :)
i still have to see him and have contact with him, but my approach to him has now changed, i grey rock him most of the time.

I believe that my biological mother had NPD. I came across a book called "Children of the self obsessed" a few years ago. It described not only her personality but also the personality of my siblings and I.

It was a revelation as we always knew something was wrong but it helped us to understand, cope and ultimately heal from her behaviour.

Her behaviour was dangerous and abusive. She caused havoc and pain for so many people. I'm really very glad that she's dead.

My mother has a lot of narcissistic traits but Im not sure she has full blown NPD. However my grandmother was a full on Trumpesque level Narc, a truly hideous woman whose legacy is my mother and her siblings (one dead from alcoholism and 2 who have hugely damaged their own children with their behaviour)
I have only come to terms with my own mothers failings in recent years after extensive counselling. However it has also opened my eyes to see how common narcissistic traits/ behaviours are and also how many people close to me seem to display them. Partly this is probably because I attract them as thanks to my mother I am a well trained people pleaser who struggles to say no and a narc loves nothing more!
I think as has previously been said, we dont necessarily need help identifying these personality types just need to instil the confidence in our kids that they can say no, they matter too and that it is ok to sometimes put themselves first (something I was never taught!), this should hopefully minimise the affect of any narc types they come across in life.

Those ppl with it cause terrible mental abuse to others specifically they target singular ppl of say from my experience but are capable of manipulating everyone and everything. It became obvious that both my DF and my DH were not wanted by their mothers, rejected and neglected and for my DH if it wasn't for his grandmother far worst would have come to him.
My DF had to fend for himself from a very young age, he was in an awful accident at 16 and his own mother prevented anyone from visiting him because the limelight had been removed from her, so there he was in hospital thinking no one cared or had been told that at least he was alive! She even refused to get an easy at birth correction to his eyes and he had to wait until he'd met my mother who cared enough for him to help him overcome the multitude of horrors.
They appear to be bad ppl or bad parents at first but it runs deeper, I always thought that my grandmother was capable of doing a Lady McBeth to a baby and I've learnt my MIL is that way inclined as well.
My MIL denied her own mother was dying to everyone and all had been told that she was just looking for attention, then when she passed there was that awkward confusion from everyone as they had become utterly convinced by MIL, all except those who knew she was lying and actually went to see how seriously ill her mother really was. She'd also tried to prevent her mother attending our wedding claiming DH hadn't told her we were getting married, that was a WTF moment, then when I was pregnant 2nd time she promised she'd take care of dc1...she offered with such force it seemed rude to refuse, then when I went into labour DH called her but she kept hanging up on his calls...my DH was absolutely upset but because I'd seen this behaviour in my own gran it was water of a ducks back and hence going NC.
These moments are some of the very mild acts of their behaviour, as I said it runs very deep and borders on frightening how utterly vicious ppl can be. I wouldn't say evil but as a child witnessing this sort of thing it truly can be.

By education I mean like the countless articles written every day on the best way to lose weight, healthy eating, even how to give a good BJ. I mean we're inundated with "experts" then.

..As to it being a personality disorder well that's only because the medical profession labelled it so. But the extremes of this behaviour; stealing, stalking, pathological lying right up to those who kill their kids after losing a custody fight etc we're example seeing everyday.. that's a serious mental health issue. For the requests for articles, yes sorry, good idea. I didn't think. Will hunt some up a bit later.