To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

[MenstruatorExtraordinaire]

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

Wow. What a thread.

Xarra I see you're fixated on "how do you police single sex spaces then?" point. Here's my view...you are right that currently a transwoman can enter a ladies only space and whilst most of us don't challenge don't for one minute think it's because we can't tell it's a LWAV if we're doing acronyms I prefer Lady Without A Vagina as yours makes me think of Patsy and Edina also. Which probably isn't a bad thing as I like them). We don't challenge because we feel uneasy, we don't know what their reaction may be and we've been conditioned to put our feelings of safety to one side to avoid harming others feelings. But we know that person isn't biologically female. And this sets our danger radar off so we do our business wash our hands and get out quickly.

If self ID becomes a thing I would bet real life money that there will be a rise in male violence on women and girls in sex segregated spaces. There still won't be a way to check users genitalia so if risks have gone up we have to decide that sex segregated places stay and you use the facility of your biological sex. If this doesn't suit a transwoman they need to campaign for their own space or tackle the reasons why the men's is unsafe for them. You say transgender people shouldn't need to argue their point. I agree they should sit down at the table and talk like adults with those of have a different view. But we know they're not interested in debate.

As for gender matters to some people I'm quite sure a day in the life of an average woman - rushed school runs, a job that we're not paid very well for, caring for sick or elderly parents, legging it round Asda on the way to school run again before getting kids to various clubs, get home, make tea, clean the house which will remain clean for 10 minutes before collapsing into bed - when you are busy just getting on shit such as "what gender do I feel " isn't even on your radar.

I would actually love to hear Patsy's take on this. Pass the Bolly someone...

I do hope @Xarra donates what's left of her brain to science as it might prove very helpful in figuring out what the fuck went wrong with society in 2019.

This is relevant to medical treatment because sex matters in terms of treating the actual patient, the potential for harm if the patient refuses to acknowledge their sex, the protection of doctors in terms of litigation arising from misdiagnosis, the protection of doctors from physical harm, the protection and dignity of other patients, the protection of cultural sensitivities of other patients.

But the harm only occurs to the person choosing to obscure their medical history - that's up to them if they decide to do that.

And to protect drs from litigation due to wrong diagnoses? Please. Drs misdiagnose all the time. How many get sued for it? Currently a thread running about how women's medical problems are ignored by drs - many posters reporting how they've been misdiagnosed or undiagnosed for years. Why aren't all of those drs terrified of being sued?

This is just another excuse that you are using to justify your feelings about trans gender people, dressed up as some sort of faux concern about their well being.

But the harm only occurs to the person choosing to obscure their medical history - that's up to them if they decide to do that.

Actually doctors have to decide capacity to make those decisions too, and mental health is relevant to that. This means that doctors can not just throw their hands up and say 'oh OK, if they want to do that it's just fine'. They had a legal duty of care.

And to protect drs from litigation due to wrong diagnoses? Please. Drs misdiagnose all the time. How many get sued for it? Currently a thread running about how women's medical problems are ignored by drs - many posters reporting how they've been misdiagnosed or undiagnosed for years. Why aren't all of those drs terrified of being sued?

Does this make it OK, or should we be improving medicine particular with reference as to how women are over looked and disregarded in medical research and diagnosis because the whole system is geared up to man as default and laced with an attitude that woman are socialised to put up and shut up and anyone who challenges it is just 'difficult'.

Once again this is a straw man argument that suggests we shouldn't ask questions and shouldn't be concerned and presumes that I haven't made the point about woman's healthcare being unacceptable for years on here, perhaps more than most posters...

It advocates a race to the bottom rather than a universal raising of standards.

Try it on with a smear if you like. It doesn't stand up.

I don't know if you can dismiss the litigation stuff quite so easily as all that, Decomposing. Right now, you're probably correct, from a criminal court position, but civil courts and private prosecutions exist too. Yes, those both cost money. Now....let's have a wee think about how much funding some groups have access to.

It does seem rather bizarre to put a lot of effort into living as the opposite sex and yet be prepared to die on that sword by refusing appropriate medical care. However, it's their choice and I've no personal objection to that as long as the consequences are theirs, and theirs alone.

But the harm only occurs to the person choosing to obscure their medical history - that's up to them if they decide to do that.

Also how does a doctor feel if a patient deliberately conceals this info and they end up dying because the doctor acting in good faith and on the basis of the info given to them.

How is that 'no harm' if the doctor feels like they have failed and feels terrible abuse it. Doctors do have feelings too.

Or are those feelings not relevant because...

... Oh yes here we go again. The only thing that matters is the feelings of...

Xarra your ignorance about female anatomy is a bit scary. You meant vulva I suspect. And this stuff matters.

Actually doctors have to decide capacity to make those decisions too, and mental health is relevant to that. This means that doctors can not just throw their hands up and say 'oh OK, if they want to do that it's just fine'. They had a legal duty of care.

Really? How easy is it to declare someone not competent? How many people, every day, lie to their drs to the detriment of their own well being or treatment?

As for wanting to improve health care - yes, absolutely we should. It's dire for many people in this country. Like truly, life threateningly dire, so why concentrate on a tiny area that will only affect a tiny number of people? Why not try to raise standards for women's health or in cancer treatment or cardiology that will affect millions?

This is just faux concern.

And to protect drs from litigation due to wrong diagnoses? Please. Drs misdiagnose all the time. How many get sued for it?

Most complaints against doctors are due to difficulties related to communication. Why add to this by factoring in oxymoronic language like “female penis” and counterintuitive pronouns?

Maybe I'm deformed....to flash at anyone would require a seated position and stirrups.

Please check 2 spirit people in native Americans, the 3rd gender in India, and other cultures through the millennia that have had trans people without an issue.

All of these cultures with alternative genders have had them as a result of one very pressing issue: gender stereotyping.

Third genders, two spirits - these are rooted in sexism.

Males whose behaviour is too far out of alignment with the local construction of masculinity are ejected from the "man club" and given an alternative designation.

This is a common pattern in sexist societies with strict gender stereotyping.

It is only considered "not an issue" by people who cannot acknowledge that it is merely a culturally-specific manifestation of patriarchy.

Most complaints against doctors are due to difficulties related to communication. Why add to this by factoring in oxymoronic language like “female penis” and counterintuitive pronouns?

Because it isn't insurmountable. Drs just need to have these conversations with patients. Come on, I can't think of any symptoms of a sex specific illness that wouldn't warrant some sort of examination or further investigation. The drs are going to know what the situation is. They need to find a sensitive way of addressing it and explain the risks that the patient is facing. Document the conversations and the outcomes as they would do in any other case where the patient refuses treatment or goes against medical advice.

Doctors frequently get sued. Some medical issues can perhaps be dealt with by eg a trans man providing confirmation they understand they are at risk of cervical cancer but do not wish to receive smear reminders.

Of course a doctor ought to know someone’s sex though. Some symptoms in a female will be indicative of a different diagnosis than in a male eg heart attack. If a surgeon is going to operate on someone’s abdomen, they need to know whether to expect to see a womb.

To an extent you could say this is up to the individual if they want to take that risk, and I would respect that as far as possible. If a trans person would rather take a risk with their health than disclose they are trans then that is up to them. But it will also be a complete waste of NHS resources if eg a trans woman is referred for an ultrasound re potential ovarian cancer, so there is a point at which it isn’t just up to the individual.

As to the original post, I actually think doctors should use preferred pronouns.

Really? How easy is it to declare someone not competent? How many people, every day, lie to their drs to the detriment of their own well being or treatment?

Doctors have to make the decision over whether to do something on the basis of the best interests of the patient and the premise of 'do no harm'.

They can refuse to do x, y or z if they feel that the person concerned will be harmed if they do. They are not obliged to do something just because a patient demands is.

In this sense capacity extends to questions over mental well being (and bearing in mind high cobidity rates this is relevant) as well as a judgement over whether the patient fully understands what they are being told and the possible consequences of that. There are also whether we like or not, questions over whether a particular treatment is deemed effective which have to be justified in terms of cost and potential side effects.

Capacity is a difficult subject because of the power in balances involved but the point remains that if someone is refusing to acknowledge the professional opinion and expertise of a doctor on the basis that they refuse to acknowledge their sex there is always going to be a conflict in this area which brings capacity to consent and understand into the frame.

A patient being in denial is not something that a doctor can merely ignore whilst maintaining their professional standards.

Because it isn't insurmountable. Drs just need to have these conversations with patients.

But it’s biologically incorrect and expecting those people whose careers have been built on correct biology/physiology to lie to be polite is a fairly big ask. Especially when they’re told if they don’t lie, then they’re a bigot and could lose their jobs.

A psychiatrist isn’t expected to go along with a mentally unwell patient’s delusions, why expect other doctors to lie about male cervixes and female penises?

Tedious as it's been, this thread does do a very good job of exposing the woeful incoherence of the trans ideology. The lack of logic never ceases to surprise me. Plus the bait and switch of the issues - that trans relates to gender, but funnily enough, it suddenly needs all the rights based on sex.

But, again, it's the rank misogyny that shines through. The prioritising of males, any males, above all women is always at the forefront.

And the relentless determination to dominate. Both the issue, and women's reaction to it.

But I'm afraid Xarra that women are now saying no. In their droves.

No.

It's a no from me too. No.

It's a big fat hairy "no" from me too.

No.

Because it isn't insurmountable. Drs just need to have these conversations with patients. Come on, I can't think of any symptoms of a sex specific illness that wouldn't warrant some sort of examination or further investigation.

1. it raises risk because there is a blurring of communication. Errors are more likely cos humans. Even with best will in the world 'not insurmountable' still means more risk if you confuse the issue
2. errors more likely under time pressure and high stress situations which are common in healthcare.
3. when we talk in euphemisms that are not in common usage eg cervix haver rather than woman we also risk the health of people who lack education or face language barriers. Everyone knows what a woman is (including if you are trans because you know you are trans and therefore by definition whether you admit it or not, know your sex).
4. it's not about sex specific illnesses. It's about stuff like what is a normal level of x in your blood if you are male v if you are female. Or how women present differently for conditions such as heart conditions. Or how women can get pregnant so the type of blood they get in a transfusion should be a certain type to prevent future possible complications in pregnancy.

Every time you add an extra layer of communication barrier you add problems. You can't avoid that.

I also believed that my cat could talk but chose not to.

Women do not have an overlap of testosterone levels with post pubertal males.
A female penis does not exist.
Gender is a made up social construct. Therefore coming up with 900 different flavours of it is only for the ultra woke with lots of spare time.

However, lordprof your above statement is probably true.

No capitulation here either.

RedToothBrush

In that case, the NHS is failing millions of us.

This is ridiculous. If a patient wants to lie to their Dr then that is their choice. It happens every day - do you drink, smoke, take drugs, have unprotected sex, at risk of being pregnant, exercise etc etc.

Do you plan on legislating for that too?

And really, how many drs won't know that their patient is trans gender? Even if it is not openly discussed they will know and should consider that when making a diagnosis.

And if the patient doesn't tell their Dr then sadly, they might not get the correct treatment but that will have been down to a choice that they made.

I chose recently not to go to hospital when I became suddenly very ill. That was my choice. I made the decision to wait and go and see a Dr elsewhere at a later date. Totally my choice and one that could have caused me great harm but it was my choice to do that because I have competency and free will. I guess you would remove that choice from me for some strange nebulous reason.

All the doctor has to say is ‘I’m a doctor. I’m a man/woman/person of science. I treat the physical body and not the mind or feelings’

And really, how many drs won't know that their patient is trans gender? Even if it is not openly discussed they will know and should consider that when making a diagnosis.

Kind of shit for the doctor though.

And really, how many drs won't know that their patient is trans gender? Even if it is not openly discussed they will know and should consider that when making a diagnosis.

But when they do know, and say so, they get fired.