To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

[MenstruatorExtraordinaire]

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

Also, diagnosed autistic here - I have no issue with calling someone I know identifies as a male 'he'... I don't check his pants for a penis first, I don't go on what he looks like, I just call him what he's asked to be called. If you call him 'her' initially because you're going on looks alone (as most people do) and you're wrong, then he'll generally correct you, and you carry on using 'him'...

Unless you're insisting on checking everyone's external and internal anatomy before you refer to them, you cannot know what gender (or indeed what sex) they are.

I honestly do not understand why you can't get that gender & sex are different and can not match.

I agree - in principle. However, those of us born female, have a lifetime experience of society treating us as a woman, usually to our considerable disadvantage. So it is very hard for us to accept people who are born male, with a lifetime of male privilege, being as much a woman as we are. Until society treats men and women equally, I don't see this changing.

It's really easy to tell 99.9999% of people's sex by just looking at them once. For a further proportion you look again or speak to them. It's how we survive as a species.
As gender is a feeling (according to you) and a stereotyped system not a quality of an individual (according to me) then no, you can't tell someone's gender by looking at them.

In terms of 'sex', you can't change the sex you were born into (with a few very exceptions), and it seems quite unwise to pretend otherwise. By all means, change how you appear to the world, but don't delude yourself into dangerous medical misinformation that might actually kill you.

a) you ask what their assigned sex at birth was and if they insist that in a medical capacity it is irrelevant that they have an organ the medical community would define as masculine, then they are screwing themself over. I know transpeople who would say their body is female and their penis is female. I doubt they would jepodise their own health by not being open with their body parts with a doctor.

2. in a medical situation I'm pretty sure you can disclose in referrals and similar. Like, if religion is relevant to the treatment, I'm pretty sure you can put no blood transfusions due to JW, without breaching confidentiality rules, and religion is a highly protected characteristic too. You can't disclose where it isn't relevant.

3. we ensure everyone updates their gender (what pronouns and identity to use) and their sex assigned at birth and any relevant changes.

Unless you're insisting on checking everyone's external and internal anatomy before you refer to them, you cannot know what gender (or indeed what sex) they are.

You don't believe this. I know you don't believe this. You don't start a job and find yourself unsure who the men are and who the women are without doing a genital check or asking for their pronouns.

Xarra if I may ask a question about "sex assigned at birth". What do you think sex is? When I had my DD, we all saw her genitals and knew she was the sex female. It wasn't arbitrarily assigned, we did the genital check you've mentioned and saw that she was a girl.

I think very very few (a minority of a minority) trans* people would put gender: female, and assigned sex at birth: female on a medical form as most are perfectly normal, sensible, rational adults who recognise that the anatomy of their meat suit would affect their treatment and doctors would need to know...

I'm bemused why anyone would think the majority of transpeople would think otherwise.

For non-medical forms where the meat-suit configeration is irrelevant, they can put gender: female, and sex shouldn't be asked (irrelevant)... Unless the usual gender/sex conflation on forms has been done, in which case, they're a woman. Because the meat suit is irrelevant.

Bless

I have a DS and a DD. They were assigned this based on their external anatomy. If DS comes up to me when he's older and goes "actually, mum, I'm female", then she gets female pronouns and can change her name if wanted. Doesn't change her body, but her mind is female.

And no, I assume based on looks (i.e.visual apparent sex) what gender my colleagues are. Unless I know what title they use (although not always clear) or they or someone else corrects me. At which point I use their correct gender.

Sex: what your physical medical anatomy is defined as.

Gender: your mental identity.

These are not the same necessarily.

I am still yet to hear what the ‘female’ mind/soul/feelz are. I really don’t. ‘I feel like a woman’ - what does that mean? How do you know? Do I feel like a woman - I have no idea. I feel like me. I like some ‘girl’ stuff but also some ‘boy’ stuff (according to convention).

What does "being female" mean in that context? In what ways could your ds potentially be female?

You ask their gender (male/female/other) and their assigned sex (male/female).

Simple. These do not need to match.

Such hogwash. If they have a GRC, then their sex, legally, is what's on the GRC!!

And now you suddenly want them to out themselves to all and sundry. The whole purpose of a GRC was so people didn't have to out themselves.

I'm afraid you are woefully ill informed about all this.

The reason why sex and gender aren't the same is because gender has got nothing to do with whether or not you are male or female. It's feminine and masculine. It's society that resolutely shackles femininity to women and masculinity to men.

And as such, it's absolutely irrelevant, certainly in a medical situation. Because it describes nothing. It doesn't describe surgery, hormones, medication or biological sex or anatomy.

You are now getting male born individuals who identify as transgender, but are transmasculine. Men, identifying as women, but presenting as masculine.

When in reality they are self-indulgent, navel gazers who like to dye their hair.

According to you, I am trans. I don't identify with the stereotypical behaviour and roles imposed upon me by society. What's the difference between me and a transman? Because, still according to you, I'm not cis.

(And no the mods won't delete posts that have that word in them, if it's about discussing the word. They will if it's used to apply to somebody.)

And you are still failing to define what gender even means. You are saying it's when you don't feel like you are the sex you are, but you have absolutely zero words to describe that feeling.

And the reason is, because it's a delusion.

You can't describe what feeling like a woman is, unless you are one. Because it's not 'liking feminity'.

And here's the real irony. Transactivists will tell you it's all about femininity, or that's what they imply. But in the event, it's all about power and privilege, it's all about patriarchy and masculinity.

Who is getting laws changed, meetings stopped, women silenced?

Guess!

what the hell is a 'female mind'???

Well. One obviously new poster (obviously because they're bringing out all the shit we've heard before and saying like it's brand spanking new... that and the utter failure to read the room) is certainly getting a lot of attention on this thread. Imagine bearing the responsibility for educating the entirety of Mumsnet on just one pair of shoulders.

I wasn't "assigned" anything at birth. I was observed to be the sex I am. My parents weren't asked if they wanted me assigned as a girl or boy once I was born - I was handed over and they were told what I was. It was observed and then written down, on my birth certificate. What the hell does "assigned" mean in the context of which sex a person is? Could someone please explain?? I must be missing something, as it just sounds like meaningless and pretentious claptrap to me. My bullshit detector is going like the fucking clappers.

What's your cultural identity? How do you know you still feel like a 'New Yorker' if you've moved to California? What physical 'proof' is there of that identity once you've moved?

What about religious identity? How do you KNOW you're a Christian? I don't see physical labels saying it. It's something you just know, that you fully and deeply believe. And what about the fact there are many denominations of Christian, and some are so vastly different you'd not say they were the same religion, but members of both call themselves Christian.

Gender is a deeply held genuine belief, a certainty of who and what you are. If you've not got a disconnect between what the world calls you and what your certainty is, then you probably won't notice it, because there's no disconnect. You don't notice a problem until it's there. Unless when people call you 'she/her' and treat you as a woman it feels wrong and totally at odds with your identity, there's no way you'd feel any difference between your sex and your gender because there isn't one to feel.

I'm agender. Calling me a 'lady' or 'woman' makes me wince a bit. There's a disconnect for me between calling me a gendered term and my self-image of who I am. If I picture myself in my mind, I either have anatomy of all sexes, or none. If most of you picture yourselves, you'll picture someone medically defined as female, because your gender and sex match up.

Self-identity is a philosophical thing, medical anatomy is medicine.

Also the hypocrisy of those types who try to throw in 'but intersex' and 'it's complicated' and 'are you a medical doctor?' and 'have you had your chromosomes tested though?' but then also argue 'I'm a layperson but I can't see how sex is relevant in a medical context' and 'if someone's pregnant it'll just get discovered in an X-ray/scan, no biggie' and 'if people suffer medically due to their own stupidity then that's their fault, think no more about it'.

Head, meet desk.

It's really easy to tell 99.9999% of people's sex by just looking at them once. For a further proportion you look again or speak to them. It's how we survive as a species.

Then what is the issue? And if it's so obvious how did the nurse in the OP not realise that the patient was a trans man and therefore consider the possibility that they might be pregnant?

You can't simultaneously argue that it's always possible to identify a trans man or woman but that HCPs might misdiagnose a patient if they don't know they are trans.

And now you suddenly want them to out themselves to all and sundry.

Let me let you in on the secret - they don’t need to be ‘outed’ and people are discussing medical issues (where biology trumps surgery and a piece of paper). And with regards to transvestites - yes people should know in instances of single sexual only facilities.

I, personally, think that a GRC is vitally important, but in a medical situation it's important for a doctor to know what anatomy/hormones someone has.

I'm not saying 'out people to all and sundry' - I'm saying in a medical situation. And ONLY there.

Gender is only relevant in a medical sense of what the doctor calls you, how they refer to you as, etc. You should have medical treatment for your anatomy, personal treatment as per your gender. The doctor shouldn't be able to go to a transwoman, "You have prostate cancer, therefore I'm referring you you as 'he' in all your notes and to colleagues" any more than they shouldn't go "Oh, you're female, so I won't bother treating your prostate cancer because you say your body is female..."

Both are ridiculous.

And yes, you can get transmasculine AMAB women. Gender is far more complex than just male or female. I'm agender for one. You could say I'm transneutral AFAB?

I think very very few (a minority of a minority) trans people would put gender: female, and assigned sex at birth: female on a medical form as most are perfectly normal, sensible, rational adults who recognise that the anatomy of their meat suit would affect their treatment and doctors would need to know...*

I'm bemused why anyone would think the majority of transpeople would think otherwise.

Because the same people seem to think it's ok to participate in female sport which is segregated because of biology (sex not gender). It is these people that are conflating sex and gender.

Is 'oh btw I'm agender' the new 'diD I mEntioN i'M a veGaN?'

How do you KNOW you're a Christian?

That’s a terrible example.
Christians know they are Christian because they believe in following the ways of Jesus, denomination doesn’t matter.

Also, wtf is a female mind?