Very difficult situation DP v DBro. AIBU for DBro to charge DP rent?

[Jetsetterf]

I'm buying a flat in joint names with DBro. DBro is putting money into the flat as an investment but the flat is being bought for me to live in.

The flat is in a different city to where DP currently lives. I've previously said to DP if he moves in I wouldn't charge him rent. DP has applied for a job in the city where the flat is.

I wouldn't charge DP rent on my share but would DBro be unreasonable to charge DP a reduced rate of rent on his share?

DP is now angry at me because I didn't tell him he may have to pay rent on DBro's share and he said he wouldn't have applied for the job in the city the flat is in if he had known. I said I wouldn't charge him rent, but I have no control over DBro's share and surely he is being unreasonable to expect DBro to let him live there rent free?

If you're paying the whole mortgage then you are effectively paying rent (unless deposit was so high that mortgage is well below market value of rent) so I think you should be able to sub let it without his permission. You are effectively paying more than him so you can live in tbe house how you want.
Only thing is wear and tear which may be fair if you pay more for eg 75pc of all decorating rsgger than 50pc. If you pay for the decorating and renovating anyway than I dont see why your brother should get more. He shouldn't really be profiting from your bf

So he's saving for his own place. Not sharing his new home with you then?

I will be paying the full mortgage whilst I live there, so I'm effectively paying rent to DBro.

Wtf? No, he’s getting his mortgage paid and not having to contribute, so effectively, he’s your landlord. I hope there’s a good contract in place.

Your DP thought you were offering free lodgings. Your brother thinks-quite rightly-that he should obviously pay rent when he’s living in someone else’s flat.

You are paying more, you’re paying the full mortgage - meanwhile your DB is paying zero. Do the math.

@NoLeopard half mortgage and half rent from day 1 would be more! £480 a month vs £260 a month for 2 years then thereafter £260 plus a token amount of rent.

Oh dear. Your partner sounds like a childish prick.

He is one of these idiots who thinks he should be entitled to breeze through life while others pick up the tab. He has gone from. Expecting his parents to pay for him to expecting you and your brother to pay for him.

HE doesn’t believe he should pay your brothers mortgage, but he does believe he should have the benefits of your and your brothers investment without contributing.

Also as others have said you need to review your arrangement with your bro5er - and seriously rethink your relationship with your boyfriend!

How does your brother own half with a £5k deposit?

1. Your DP is a Cocklodger -in-Waiting. Run now whilst you still have a chance. Don't say we didn't warn you.

1. You should only be paying the mortgage. Not the mortgage plus rent.

1. Do not allow DP to move in with you rent free (just in case you didn't understand point 1)

Are you sure you're a solicitor?? How do you not understand your brother's mugging you off here.

If he wanted let the flat he'd have to get a buy to let mortgage, which costs more just to begin with, and landlords insurance and paying an estate agent and then split any profit with you as the other owner!!

Db needs a return on his investment like any btl investor. Whatever the market rent is, op needs to pay him half, plus bills (like any other renter) and half the mortgage.

You'll be living there, so you pay rent to your bro for his half. This covers his half of mortgage and loans. I do see that he could/should charge half the market rate for rent and that this might bear no relation to the amount of your mortgage, he might make a profit.

It's the way you're explaiing it as mortgage plus rent and the timeframe that's confusing.

Anyway, with DP, if he saves what he would be paying in rent, then, when you want to buy somewhere together in a few years time, you'll both have a good contribution to make to a deposit. But in the meantime, you're not living together. You don't want to live together at his parents' house, so....

Maybe he needs to sacrifice his extreme savings mentality for the sake of saving his relationship, by living with his girlfriend at some point in the next few years? Or you really will be just GF and BF and, will have a HUGE leap ot make when you do want to buy somewhere - from never having lived together to committing to buying together. That is a risky prospect.

I have to go to bed now @Jetsetterf. Despite begin a solicitor yourself, do please get some impartial legal advice before you enter into this arrangement with your brother.

Get things tightened up so they're fairer for you from the outset.

And as for your partner, who knows - that aspect to me is the red herring here and very much secondary to your main focus, which at this stage should be tightening up your affairs around the share on the house between you and your brother.

I would love the outcome to this to be that you and DP wait for longer to buy somewhere, saving together and getting a place together. He is clearly striving to get a place at the moment (I stayed with my folks at a similar age to save up the deposit for my first place) so can you hang fire with buying somewhere till you and your DP are in a position to do it together?

Anyway, as I said - please do get advice and put the arrangement with your brother front and centre since that's who you'd be buying the house with as it stands.

This is the most stupid arrangement I have ever heard

This is genuinely a clusterfuck of a situation waiting to explode OP- this does not sound like a good idea at all, unless you can get everything nailed down legally.

In my super-tired, pregnancy brain this is how I am understanding things...

There is a tiny amount in discrepancy between the capital invested by you and your brother. You should be paying half the mortgage each.

You have sole use of the property so could pay your half of the mortgage plus your brother's half of mortgage in lieu of the fact you have sole exclusive use, ie. it is your house.

It is then up to you whether you decide to charge your DP rent or not. (he should pay rent or you are simply paying for his mortgage deposit)

You cover bills and council tax etc for running of the property, but costs involving the house itself, or anything that affects the value of the property is split between you 50/50.

I wouldnt like it as a situation personally. If I have got it right and that is how things are supposed to be, then both DP and DB are being unreasonable.

You need to rethink this. Yes, if you live there, you pay more. But as it stands, your brother, in say, four years time, will have paid 5k in to the property, and received two years rent from you, so say net 2.5k?. You will have paid 4k plus four years mortgage, plus two years rent paid to your brother, plus all upkeep costs.

So let's say you sell at that point.

Brother gets half of the profit, for an outlay of about 2.5k

Really?

Okay, so the mortgage is 83k which you will be paying off.
Loans are 51k which you will both pay off (25.5k) each.
You put in 4K and DB put in 5k.

I work out that you are paying £112 500, which is 78% of the cost of the flat. That is without rent and without mortgage interest, over 4/5 of the cost of the flat.

My sums may be wrong but the principle is not. Surely you would be better renting out the flat so it is clear who owns and gets what and living somewhere else. I cannot see how this situation benefits you, plus your DB is telling you who you can have live there with you and on what terms.

I would not do that. Ignore me if I have the wrong end of the stick.

That is aside from the DP issue. I would not move in a boyfriend who wanted to pay nothing, but I would wish the right to do, if that makes sense. If you are paying to live there, it is nothing to do with your DB.

Are you sure you're a solicitor?? How do you not understand your brother's mugging you off here

I'm so glad its not just me who is so baffled by your inability to see that your brother is taking the piss. You talk like you owe him but he's only contributed £1000 more than you and he's basically your landlord with none of the responsibilities.

Do you always let the men in your life walk all over you?!

Your brother is exploiting you and your partner. Your partner shouldn’t expect to live anywhere free. That’s nuts. It’s proper cocklodger behaviour.

You’re clearly book smart, but maybe not so worldly. Is this boyfriend you’re equal? You’re a solicitor and he’s going for a 20k job? I don’t think that kind of inequality is good. And I certainly think he’s showing you exactly who he is using you as a cash cow.

Run run run.

@NoLeopard half mortgage and half rent from day 1 would be more! £480 a month vs £260 a month for 2 years then thereafter £260 plus a token amount of rent.

What do you even mean by this? If the full flat mortgage is £260 pcm then half mortgage is £130 pcm plus half again as a "rent" to your brother so total £195 pcm

Why are you inviting your DP to live rent free?
You are crazy to entertain funding this man child.

Stop it. Pack it in now.
Tell him he pays half as he gets half facilities.
And get some self respect!

OP. This is a massive red flag

Let him live at home with parents. One weekend you visit him the next he comes to you. When he is with you you pay the food at home and split going out. likewise when you're with him his parents can pay your food bills and you can split going out I guarantee within six months this relationship will be over he is a CF. Warning warning do not pay out a penny for him do you understand if he's arguing about rent what will happen about council tax water rates electricity gas. Wi-Fi is he running in the car does he have a mobile phone can he actually afford to move out

Can someone please help me with the maths? Off topic, but I think it needs to be addressed. How much should I be paying please?

Just to repeat
Purchase price: £143,000
Loan: £30,000
Another loan: £21,000
DBro: £5,000
Jetsetterf: £4,000
Monthly mortgage: £260

Jetsetterf will be living at the property alone for at least 2 years.

A mortgage is always cheaper than private rent

I have to say that neither your brother nor your partner are coming out of this very well. I thought at first that you were paying the full mortgage because your brother had paid the deposit but you are only paying 1k less. I do think it would be helpful for you to get some sort of legal agreement in place. I get that your brother is ‘only’ making a smaller profit because you are not paying commercial rent on ‘his’ half but he should have gone for buy to let on his own if that’s so important to him.

It all looks a bit of a mess in terms of who actually owns things and who is entitled to what with all the various family loans. If you feel confident about your future with your partner, why not buy a place together. He would presumably be ok about paying for his accommodation then.

Your brother is being a dick. It’s actually making me cross. Either you haven’t explained it or he really is mugging you off!