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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Very difficult situation DP v DBro. AIBU for DBro to charge DP rent?

321 replies

Jetsetterf · 08/07/2019 21:09

I'm buying a flat in joint names with DBro. DBro is putting money into the flat as an investment but the flat is being bought for me to live in.

The flat is in a different city to where DP currently lives. I've previously said to DP if he moves in I wouldn't charge him rent. DP has applied for a job in the city where the flat is.

I wouldn't charge DP rent on my share but would DBro be unreasonable to charge DP a reduced rate of rent on his share?

DP is now angry at me because I didn't tell him he may have to pay rent on DBro's share and he said he wouldn't have applied for the job in the city the flat is in if he had known. I said I wouldn't charge him rent, but I have no control over DBro's share and surely he is being unreasonable to expect DBro to let him live there rent free?

OP posts:
burnoutbabe · 08/07/2019 23:41

Unless the partner is getting his own room then I can't see why he'd have to pay rent over and above what the deal already is. And if it's a 2 bed flat,brother can rent out the other room if he wants can't he?

Merryoldgoat · 08/07/2019 23:43

You’re a solicitor?! I hope not a property one...

Why on earth would you pay your brother rent in addition to the full mortgage? Fucking hell - all three of you sound bonkers.

Schuyler · 08/07/2019 23:47

You were very strongly advised not to go ahead with this last time you posted. Please run away from this and get independent legal advice.

BearsDontDigOnDancing · 08/07/2019 23:49

Basically, your brother need to pay his half of the mortgage.

You then pay him "half" rent - so £350.

You brother should then also be responsible for 50% of the maintenance costs that come with being a landlord.

But DB should not expect any rent for the first 2 years due to the apparent terms of the mortgage.

If DP moves in, you can allow him to live rent free for your share, but then he splits the cost of the rent 50/50 with you to DB. He also is then responsible for 50% of all household bills but 0% of any maintenance/upkeep costs.

Your DB does not get to throw in £5000 and then pay nothing toward the actual house for however long and expect a 50% return on his investment.

owlonabike · 08/07/2019 23:51

OP, are you absolutely sure that the legal arrangements are watertight, in case of family fallings out, and are also acceptable to the mortgage lender? When my dc bought a house , they were eligible for a mortgage of £X. The house they bought was 35£k under this but they were still not allowed to accept a loan of a few thousand from me towards the deposit, even though they would have no problem repaying. It had to be gifted with a letter to state it was such, and that I agreed I had no interest in the property.

BearsDontDigOnDancing · 08/07/2019 23:53

Although given his name is not on the mortgage apparently not sure what actual legal protection your brother has here either.

BouncyTigger85 · 08/07/2019 23:53

Surely if he wants 50% of the rentable value, your brother should pay his half of the mortgage, like he would still have to if you rented it through an estate agents.

Original poster
Jetsetterf · 08/07/2019 23:54

@merryoldgoat No, not property thankfully! I do do a bit of intellectual property though, haha Wink

I've just had a long chat with DBro. He just wants me to pay the mortgage for however long I live there. There's either been a misunderstanding or he's realised his previous proposal was very unfair! I kept quiet before because I can't afford to buy on my own. My parents were only willing to give us a loan together.

Still left with the DP situation though!

OP posts:
Original poster
Jetsetterf · 08/07/2019 23:55

DBro and I are entering into a declaration of trust for those wondering

OP posts:
NinjaInFluffyPJs · 08/07/2019 23:56

@BearsDontDigOnDancing exactly! He may be paying half the loans and yet have no proper claim to property

Merryoldgoat · 08/07/2019 23:57

Do you not see how ridiculous it is for your DP to expect to live rent free? Does it not ring alarm bells?

Original poster
Jetsetterf · 09/07/2019 00:02

@Merryoldgoat I do understand both sides... DP is currently living rent free with his parents and is saving for his own property. He only agreed to move because he thought he could live rent free with me too. Otherwise, he would rather live at home and save

OP posts:
Purpleartichoke · 09/07/2019 00:03

This is just a mess

He absolutely should be paying rent. You should not want to live with someone who won’t support himself.

Yet you told him you wouldn’t charge him rent. That your brother might charge him rent instead and you don’t mention that is ridiculous. Why would you be nitpicking this with an “oh I said iiiiI wouldn’t charge you rent”

Did you work out any kind of agreement with your brother

Tiesto · 09/07/2019 00:03

@Jetsetterf

Well done on talking to your brother and clarifying the situation, however if anything that just makes clear the importance of at least semi finalising the arrangement because the ease with which misunderstandings can arise is very high as we’ve just seen.

Agreeing on and writing down now what happens in some potentially likely future scenarios is definitely in both your interests.

Isatis · 09/07/2019 00:03

-He doesn't want to pay rent anywhere because he doesn't want to pay towards anyone's mortgage

But on what basis should anyone pay for the privilege of giving him free accommodation? I don't want to pay towards my own mortgage, but I knew even before I signed it that what I wanted didn't come into it, accommodation costs just have to be paid.

I second the view that you should get independent advice on the entire arrangement. Are you sure that you should be buying the property jointly rather than as tenants in common? As matters stand, if, say you got married and had children and then died, your share of the house would go to your brother and not your family.

everyoneisasleepbutme · 09/07/2019 00:04

Your dp is a cocklodging man child and I wouldn't move in with him, ever.

If your brother is only putting 5k in and not paying the mortgage then he doesn't get half the profit when you sell. He gets a percentage based on what he's put in.

SandyY2K · 09/07/2019 00:13

Your BF hasn't got the job yet.

He can withdraw his application if he would prefer to stay with his folks.

As you're just moving in the house yourself... let him stay at his current job and with his parents and you can experience living in your own house for a while.

He can come and stay weekends with you.

Tbh if I bought a house with my brother...I'd be pissed off if he decided to move his GF in.

Glad you've cleared things up with DB.

Wakeupalready · 09/07/2019 00:18

Even if you have talked to your brother, it's still a mess and I agree that you need to legally tie this all up much better, as you've already had one "misunderstanding", and there's a huge potential for more of these.
I think ( bad at maths here) @everyoneisasleepbutme has a point. If your brother isn't paying the mortgage ( once you've evened up the $1000 discrepancy) he shouldn't get the half the profit back. And if your brother isn't on the mortgage ? Well, he needs advice too.

Your DP can't move in for free. You've made a mistake with that. Say so. He's only applied for a job, he hasn't got one - so he can still stay at home and save. Other than the disappointment at not being able to live with you, he hasn't really experienced any great inconvenience. So he should keep his anger to himself. It's not painting him in a good light.
If you let him do this you are likely to be on here in a few months posting about income disparity and who has more money at the end of each month, because he's living for free at yours.
Have you discussed bills etc with him and how those would be split in the event that you let him move in?

Then even if your DP does pay rent, and you get married while he's living in this flat - what happens in the event of a separation with between you, DB and DP/DH?

Really, really complicated.
Again, contract and accountancy advice.

VeThings · 09/07/2019 00:20

On the rent to your brother...

Half rent would be £350. But you’ve forgotten to deduct his £130 share he would have to pay towards mortgage, if the house were rented out.

Plus the fact your DB avoids any ‘empty’ periods and that he will have no wear and tear costs, landlord insurance, agent fees, redecorating after tenants leave, etc.

Your DB is getting a fantastic deal here. The most you should pay him in ‘rent’ is £350-£130 = £220. He should also be contributing to them 50/50 since he gets 50% of the flat value at sale.

VeThings · 09/07/2019 00:21

Contributing to them = he should pay for 50% essential maintenance works (like boiler repairs etc) that a landlord would ordinarily pay.

VeThings · 09/07/2019 00:22

Aaaaand I just read your update that your DB just wants you to pay mortgage. In that case, you should cover al essential works.

HeddaGarbled · 09/07/2019 00:26

Goodness, all those months of financial impasse with your brother resolved after one midnight conversation on the same day as this thread. Are you making this up as you go along?

pikapikachu · 09/07/2019 00:29

You're a solicitor but have made a terrible deal.

The £700 income is from year 3. You can't rent the house out yet. If you got a buy to let mortgage the mortgage payment would be higher.

A normal person in your position would pay the mortgage plus a monthly payment to brother so that he got his £5k (and maybe some interest?) back.

but I'm assuming the brother owns 50%

Brother should get £350 from you but be liable for 50% of the costs of maintaining the house and 50% of the mortgage.

You obviously pay 100% of utilities, contents insurance etc

Why would your brother get more of your dp moved in? I think that if your dp moved in, dp and you pay the brother £175 each and you and brother be responsible for 50% of the mortgage and maintenance costs each. Your dp would pay 50% of utilities and contents insurance.

EileenAlanna · 09/07/2019 00:33

Your DB has a £30,500 interest in the property - between 20/25%? Are the deeds in your sole name? If necessary have them amended to state the percentage each of you own & it's probably best to hold the deeds as joint tenants rather than tenants in common. On this basis work out how much he's actually entitled to regarding rent minus costs.
Your DP is a whole different matter. If he doesn't want to pay rent to anybody that's perfectly fine, but that brings restrictions of choice with it & he can't expect to have it both ways. He can continue living with his parents then buy his own place. If you move in with him obviously it'll be rent free as he's opposed to the concept of paying rent to pay someone else's mortgage & he'll abide by his principles. Won't he?

Original poster
Jetsetterf · 09/07/2019 00:38

@HeddaGarbled I wish I was!

DBro and I currently live together with our parents so we have many midnight conversations. Hope that explains it.

OP posts: