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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be pissed off by my friend's career snobbery?

120 replies

Oddychaj · 07/07/2019 14:02

DD is starting Year 13. She wants to do her degree in pediatric nursing, but is aware the course is competitive and plans to do adult nursing then get the further qualifications for neonatal on top of that if she can't do pediatric. Her preferred uni is Central Lancashire. We expect her to get all of the grades required etc. Was having coffee yesterday with a friend and was a little shocked by what she said. We were talking about our DC and I said:

"DD is looking to go into pediatric nursing or potentially neonatal. We've looked at a few unis and are very optimistic."

She responded:

"Why hasn't she looked at being a doctor? She seems clever enough and I'd say it's much more rewarding."

I was quite thrown. DD is clever and I expect her to get the grades for nursing with flying colours, but she's unlikely to get A's and A* across the board. Probably a mix of A's and B's. Which I see absolutely no problem with. She also stated to me she's not interested in doctor as it's a much longer course and has more elements to it that she's not interested in. I told my friend this and she responded "If my DS (15) decides to go into the medical field I will be pushing him towards doctor." I changed the subject.

AIBU to be quite insulted? We are from a working class background and DD will be one of 2 family members on my side to have gone to uni. So it's very exciting for us. I don't like hearing her chosen career will be inferior.

OP posts:
MissConductUS · 07/07/2019 18:03

just this country that doesn't value them and that's because our country is run by an old Etonian boys network basically! Quite depressing!

That does sound depressing.

It may also have to do with the fact that the NHS is practically a monopoly employer and there's little competitive demand for nurses. They should seriously consider taking the NCLEX-RN exam and coming to work here.

JWrecks · 07/07/2019 18:08

My sister is a nurse in a prestigious pediatric hospital, in a very difficult and complicated ward. She has one of the most demanding, heartbreaking, stressful, difficult, elite jobs I can think of. She loves it, she's bloody good at it, and she will never change careers. Nursing is all she's ever wanted to do.

She gets asked if she's working on becoming a doctor probably at least weekly. She answers that she wouldn't get to spend as much time with her patients, or, haha, that doctors work too hard (as if nurses don't).

The question always comes from well meaning people - often grateful parents of very sick children - who, I think, simply don't understand the differences between the two jobs. It's always meant as a compliment (you could do it, you're ever so clever! it's such a respectable job title!); it's just a bit of a misunderstanding, I think.

At least in my sister's hospital, doctors have the "technical" duties of diagnosing, deciding overall treatment, studying innovations, things like that. Their knowledge and education are often highly specialised and needed everywhere all at once. They don't get to spend much time with patients. They are often tired, mentally exhausted, and even a bit lonely. The pressure and responsibility of making dozens of literal life or death decisions daily can be isolating.

Nurses become family to their patients. They spend intimate hours with each patient and their family. They carry out the decisions ordered by the doctors, in most cases administer the treatments prescribed, and they take care of nearly every other patient need.

Nurses are doctors, arsewipers, life savers, social workers, babysitters, therapists, waitresses, torturers, personal shoppers, pharmacists, entertainers, teachers, aunties/uncles, butlers, first responders, friends, deputies, ministers, protectors, and more... all day, every day, to everyone. They know everything about their patients and develop deep bonds with them, and that can only come from spending the time with people which doctors simply cannot do.

Nurses are right there with people, day and night, hour by hour, during the hardest, scariest, worst time of their lives, for the duration. Nurses are there with the patient as they vomit and soil the room in the middle of the night. They are holding the crying mother's hand and maybe crying with her. They are right there beside the chemotherapy patient as they lose their hair and get sick and weak and stop eating, every step of the way. They are the first one in the room when a patient has an emergency, with all of the patient's meds and allergies memorised. They are the one intubating or IVing or injecting a terrified patient as gently as possible. They clean shit off their shoes and blood from their scrubs and piss out of their hair without complaint. They bring in gifts for patients' birthdays, and bring pillows and blankets for family who dare not leave their loved one's bedside. They comfort and cradle the scared little child whose mum had to leave the hospital for the first time; they sing her to sleep. They dress up like Batman or Rapunzel when a patient finally goes home. They soothe the terrified and confused dementia patient when they wake up in the night in an alien place, every night for years. They hold in the body-rocking sobs of sorrow and anger until they get home because they don't want the family to know that their child is the most horrific case of abuse they've ever seen. They go to the funerals.

I think that people who ask nurses (or aspiring) if they plan to become doctors simply don't understand how different the jobs are on a patient by patient, minute by minute basis. I think people may not understand the very different reasons that a person would be drawn to one or the other.

It takes a dedicated, organized, intelligent, analytical, rational person to be a doctor and want to save as many lives as possible in the time they have, and obviously that is one of the most important jobs on earth.

But it takes a very special, kind, strong, tireless, fearless, empathetic, quick witted, composed, selfless, loving, generous person - one with a bottomless heart, iron stomach, and endless brain capacity - to be a nurse, to want to be hands on helping people to survive day by day.

(Sorry! I went on a bit of a rant there! I guess I can't seem to hold back when I think there might be somebody somewhere who doesn't understand that nurses are so incredibly badass!

I do hope there's at least something in there that you can take to your friend to help her understand your DDs decision, @Oddychaj. If not, then maybe some words of encouragement for your aspiring nurse?)

StillMedusa · 07/07/2019 18:09

I'm in the position of having one daughter who is a doctor and one who is a childrens' hospice nurse.
Neither is 'better' than the other.. they both have an amazing skill set, which suits their personalities.

I do think that med school was more brutal... you have to REALLY want to be a doctor to put yourself through so many opportunities to fail.. they weed med students out very quickly. Nursing was incredibly demanding in placements and work load but seemed (from my outsider's perspective.. slightly kinder)

My girls respect each other's jobs and know full well they couldn't exist without the other!

BlamesFartsOnTheNeighbour · 07/07/2019 18:10

This isn't a Communist state where professions are based on apparent aptitude you know

You say this like it's a bad thing Confused Better that than a chancellor of the exchequer whose main professional experience has been folding towels.

SolsticeBabyMaybe · 07/07/2019 18:18

I'd take it as a compliment, she's just saying your daughter is very bright and seems like she'd get amazing grades. How is that insulting!

PuzzledObserver · 07/07/2019 18:22

How times have changed.

The summer after my O-levels (that dates me), I worked as a hospital housekeeper (Read: cleaner who serves tea and meals). One day while sweeping the floor I was chatting to a patient and told him I would be getting my O-level results the following day. He asked me what I planned to do, and I told him I was going to 6th form college to study maths and sciences because I wanted to be a doctor.

His response: why not a nurse?

This was back in the 1980’s when doctor = man, nurse = woman was widely believed.

I’d also like to say that just because you have the intellectual ability to achieve a given qualification does not necessarily mean you will be good at the related job..... or that you will find it satisfying.

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 07/07/2019 18:48

It's not really snobbery to suggest that a doctor is a better paid career than a nurse. Lots of females still think being a doctor is out of reach for them, so I don't think she did anything wrong in raising it.

In all honesty, I agree. I do believe that women 'undervalue' themselves more than men do (generally speaking Blush) I think that your friend was acknowledging how smart your daughter is and getting the suggestion out there.

However if your daughter wants to be a nurse, then that's absolutely fantastic.

Good luck with whatever she chooses Smile

EvaHarknessRose · 07/07/2019 18:52

Some families (and some cultures) strongly push doing high earning and high prestige careers.

jay55 · 07/07/2019 19:00

One of my brightest friends went into paediatric nursing. 20 years later she's a nurse practitioner, has a phd and is invited to conferences all over the world to talk about oncology care for children.

There are many, many career paths within nursing.

Spidey66 · 07/07/2019 19:03

Many senior nurse/doctor roles are interchangeable e.g. practitioner or prescriber roles.

I'm not one (too lazy) but trust me, I've got enough nursing experience to confidently confront a consultant let alone a junior doctor.

Spidey66 · 07/07/2019 19:08

Nb when I said 'I'm not one, ' I meant a prescriber. I definitely am a nurse.

Mind you my nan used to ask when I was going to be a 'real nurse. I'm a mental health nurse.

kateluvscats · 07/07/2019 19:12

Just a word of warning, I am an adult nurse and there are no paediatric conversion courses, I have been trying for years to convert, there are no conversion courses and if you have a degree they won't let you do the paediatric nursing even if you do the full three years. Settle for nothing less than the paediatric nursing degree.

Decormad38 · 07/07/2019 19:25

Can I say that you can work in neonates after having done an adult nursing course. We have a number of students do that when qualifying.

beanaseireann · 07/07/2019 19:26

Decormad38
Ireland doesn't value it's nurses either.

Esker · 07/07/2019 19:31

Extremely rude of your friend. What an odd way to react to someone's news about their child's career choice Confused
But way more importantly, well done to your dd for making such a great career decision. My son (still a toddler) was very premature and is still in and out of hospital all the time. He owes his life to the highly dedicated and skilled NICU, PICU and Paeds nurses. If he one day decided he wanted to be a paediatric nurse (or any kind of nurse), I would burst with pride 🥰

Douberry · 07/07/2019 19:52

As someone who works for the health service I see both arguments. Nursing is such a vital part of the service and totally under-appreciated. Nurses and midwives by and large do a brilliant job and always in need of brilliant people. However the reality is that medics are so much better paid and well, more respected, whilst this isn't the be all and end all, perhaps it would be good for your DD to be aware of this. I agree with some of the PP who have said perhaps your friend is pointing this out as it could be a self limiting move.

IHopeYouUnderstandWeArePuppets · 07/07/2019 20:54

Am I the only one thinking it’s pretty sexist that people seem to feel the need to patronise women who choose nursing by reminding them that they could aim higher and be a doctor? I bet if you're DD was a DS OP it would have been hats off to him. Shocked to see these posts on mumsnet. It’s just the same as it begin fine to dress your little girl in blue, or your little boy in pink or blue, but god forbid you dress your little girl in pink. Things that are traditionally associated with women or girls are deemed unacceptable for woman and girls. Just sexism under a different guise.

IHopeYouUnderstandWeArePuppets · 07/07/2019 20:54

It's not insulting for someone to ask the question. If DD wants to be a nurse, that's great. But plenty of people, especially women, lack confidence to go for what they really want or could achieve, so it's good for them to be challenged to see if they are 'settling' for less, or picking the thing they really want.

It’s this rubbish I’m talking about.

BoomBoomsCousin · 08/07/2019 19:02

I bet if you're DD was a DS OP it would have been hats off to him.

That's likely because he would have already heard the message that he could try to be a doctor more than he would have heard the message that he could try to be a nurse, so his decision would have been made with knowledge that the option is available to him. Acknowledging that we live in a world in which there are sexist ideas foisted on children all though their childhoods and trying to counter that isn't being sexist it's trying to counter the insidious impact of social condition.

What is sexist in the reciprocal sense is that if a boy says he's going to try to be a doctor, few people will suggest to him that he considers nursing instead, even if his grades make the doctor route a stretch.

RandomMess · 08/07/2019 19:16

I had similar discussions with DD and I have encouraged her to consider aiming for medicine instead. Ultimately if she gets to uni she can switch degrees to do nursing or paramedics but I didn't want her to sell her ability short and qualify as a nurse/paramedic then regret not being a Dr and potentially starting from scratch!!!

It does help that she loves maths and science and we'll see how the A-levels go. I think it was lack of confidence in her academic ability. It is a hard balance between supporting and encouraging your DC whilst not letting them "undersell" themselves.

I would have been a higher achiever with parental support and encouragement.

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