To expect this employee to make appointments in her own time?

[Womanager]

Name changed for this.

I manage an employee with various long term health conditions. She works part time (mornings only), but it seems like every time she has a hospital appointment, she makes it in the mornings so she has to request time off work to attend. We have a policy regarding paid time off for appointments, but this women seems to be abusing it.

WIBU to ask her to make appointments in her own time?

What about keeping all the appointment evidence and sharing with the head all of the appointments you need to attend and prove a significant percentage are in your own time and 100% of times within your control are outside work time?

@FloofenHoofen

I have only ever had choose and book appointments for new referrals. Such as the time I went to the eye clinic. All my others (bar for my IV treatment) are sent to me in the post. With the consultants, they have specific mornings they work and that’s it. One of them is also notorious for cancelling and rebooking my appointments, so even if I get an appointment that is convenient chances are they will cancel it anyway!

I have shown all my letters to my boss. To be fair, they do say that if you can’t make it you can phone and rebook. But what the letters don’t say is how long the wait is for a rebooked appointment and the fact that you still only have, say, Tuesday mornings to choose from.

@EnchentButteler

I have tried. The latest appointment I asked for time off, she asked if I could change it and I said I couldn’t. She asked if I could at least try and get my IVs out of school time, and I pointed out I have 3 different appointments coming up in the summer holidays. She still didn’t seem satisfied!

Can't always rearrange. I have a number of chronic health conditions, and have met with almost complete failure on trying to move any of them to times that are less inconvenient for work. Despite being a consultant working in the same trust as most of the appointments. Choice only works when there is slack in the system. We're out of slack.

Womanager well you can't say you haven't tried! Being ill is shit. I had multiple appointments for a now resolved issue but the consultant only worked Wednesday mornings. I work Wednesday mornings so was regularly asking for an hour off. However my manager was great and just wanted me well. I'm sorry your head is not more reasonable

You can't choose MRI appointments! You get one when they are available. I'm afraid you sound unreasonable to me and I think you are on dodgy ground. Part time workers should try to schedule appointments when the can on non working times but it genuinely isn't always possible. For example my chemo had to be Wednesday at 9 am. That's when they treated my type of cancer. They didn't do it any other day of the week

18/19 school yr is almost finished.
How many appointments have you had since Sept'18, OP, and how many of those were in your usual work hours so you had to miss work for them?

We have a similar policy but if someone is having a lot of time off we then take it as unpaid. It's funny how when they don't get paid for it they can suddenly get appointments outside of work hours.

Or alternatively they stop receiving medical treatment as they can't afford to see a doctor and miss a half day's pay. That's what I did (and ended up getting really sick and not being able to work for six months).

I'm also deeply frustrated by the people saying the OP can't work if she needs monthly or bi monthly doctors appointments in working hours. You do all know this is absolutely not how the DWP look at it? And what's more, I bet half the posters on this thread would be the first to complain if their next door neighbour was living on benefits full time because they need to keep their time clear for their half day a month.

Some clinics only run mornings. Also, if these are long term health problems they are likely to be covered under the equality act.

@batvixen123 exceedingly good points.

So wait sorry I'm confused, is this post actually about you womanger? Because you've lost me now I thought this was about an employee that you managed.

My last employer introduced the No Time Off For Appointments.

This meant I stopped receiving the medication I needed to keep me functioning - it was conditional upon attending hospital regularly for blood tests (that couldn't be done at the GP) and reviews of my blood results (so I wouldn't die).

Took about 9 months of pain and misery before it got so bad that I lied about why I wasn't coming into work, as apparently, a migraine was acceptable (possibly because the boss suffered from them), went to the GP and, whilst frantically trying to get me seen by a specialist, issued me with a sick note. I was off for three months and was then off every Friday for six more with various treatments, tests and procedures. Cost them a fortune, as in sending me to Occy Health to 'establish if what she is claiming is true' - yep, the OH Professional was so enraged by that, they showed me the referral form - OH subsequently reported back that not only had I fully disclosed everything prior to taking up employment and they'd cleared me, I now needed x adjustments as a direct result of their refusal to allow rests, suitable footwear, time off for appointments, etc, all of which were very expensive.

My union rep had a Field Day at the subsequent meeting when he pointed out that there was a very good case for direct disability discrimination and unless they'd rather pay the five figure compensation now and never hear from me again, he'd happily see them in court. Or they could make the adjustments and never stop me from attending essential appointments again/penalise me financially for doing so.

I have to admit that I was slightly disappointed that they apologised (after being given instructions from the board to do so) and made the adjustments. The cash would have been far more pleasant, as it was still bloody awful trying to drag myself through the week whilst hoping I'd go into remission soon.

Anyhow, you would be directly discriminating against somebody by penalising her financially for taking time off for NHS appointments for her condition. She isn't just popping to the GP and then going shopping for the rest of the day. She's hanging around bloody hospitals for half the day, if not longer - on one particular instance, I was waiting for my 9.10am appointment, didn't get seen until 11.17am, then had to go and wait for 3 x-rays, one ultrasound and a blood test. Each wait was an hour long with insufficient and inadequate seating. After which, I had a rather unpleasant procedure (45 minute wait). And then there was the trip back on public in rush hour when I couldn't walk properly.

I got home later than when I work a full day and spent the entire weekend in bed.

Strangely, even if you take into account my absences directly related to my disability/condition, I have a better sickness record than 92% of the staff - now I don't get penalised for needing it.

@FloofenHoofen - pick and book (or whatever it’s called) doesn’t operate everywhere.
I’m in Scotland, and have recently had treatment and major surgery. This was across 3 health board areas. Not one of those offered that service.
Please don’t assume that things are automatically available everywhere.

HollaHolla well I wasn't referring to Scotland was I.

I have hospital appointments for a few things and you don't make them you get given them, mine are also usually in the morning, if you don't take what they give you you can end up waiting weeks more again.

I'd be screwed in your workplace I have multiple hospital clinic appointments - two of the clinics I attend only run at certain times on certain days.
My work let me go to all my appointments but I make the time up either later in the office or working at home.

At Guy's hospital - or at least 'my' department, the appointment system is you get what you're given, you might be able to pick a date/time after clinic if they're not too busy and let you - and if you do need to change it, as I had to in March, you get the next available - in my case, this was a couple of weeks ago. At 11.10am.

So I had the entire day off - I needed to leave about twenty minutes after starting work to get there, then wait, then have the appointment, then wait for bloods, then wait again, then travel back - I got in ten minutes before I would have finished work for the day.

Better than St George's by a country mile, though - I once waited 15 months for an appointment because they kept on cancelling them, as the consultant was apparently on annual leave. Seems that, being humans, they like taking time off at half term and school holidays to spend them with their children - there was genuinely no point in booking appointments in school holidays because they were always cancelled. In the end, I had a bit of a meltdown at the GP and they referred me to Guys instead.

Well she’s working part time so I’d say she could easily make appointments for the afternoon. Yes sometimes clinic appointments are on a certain day but she could always swap to a consultant who does afternoon clinics. I’d say she is taking the piss

NHS hospitals don't tend to have multiple consultants of the same specialty offering clinics at different times to suit the patient's boss. They never have done.

I’ve had a few hospital appointments recently. There are no afternoon consultants that I could swap to. The sessions are in the morning on two specific mornings, but in actual fact only one of the sessions was designed for my specific problem. I could attend the other morning session if I wanted but that was a more general clinic. So there was only one morning a week that the clinic was run. Nothing to swap to.

@FloofenHoofen

Yes, I admitted several pages ago that it was really about me. If you can’t rtft then you could at least highlight the op’s post in settings and read those.

@ragged

I have already answered that question, but here it is again. In the academic year I have had 3 consultant appointments where I worked part of my shift. One MRI and one IV treatment, both of which necessitated missing work completely.

In my own time I have attended a specialist nurse clinic, 1 consultant and 3 IVs. And the occupational health appointment.

@Kazzyhoward. Are you for real. You moved cancer treatment appointments because "they were inconvenient".

Think you have your priorities wrong love.

@Kazzyhoward

Now I have seen your other posts I think I get the picture. You are the patient that every receptionist hates and every other patient gets pissed off with when they've sat and heard "that" patient kicking off because the appointment isn't suitable as it gets in the way of their Pilates or Tuesday morning coffee with the girls.

I have quite a lot of hospital appointments and as they are in a particular clinic that is only held on a certain morning of the week there is no way they can be changed to "my own time".
I mostly make up the time but I don't feel that I have to as full time workers never do. I'm not really sure about HR policies that state that only part time workers have to make appointments in their own time as that sounds discriminatory.

Sorry, I've just noticed that this is a reverse, you have MS and are on Tysarbi. Someone I work with is on this too. You should absolutely have the time off you need for appointments. Don't be upset by your ignorant boss as the law is on your side. I feel quite angry on your behalf that you are getting hassle for this. Do you belong to a union?