To expect this employee to make appointments in her own time?

[Womanager]

Name changed for this.

I manage an employee with various long term health conditions. She works part time (mornings only), but it seems like every time she has a hospital appointment, she makes it in the mornings so she has to request time off work to attend. We have a policy regarding paid time off for appointments, but this women seems to be abusing it.

WIBU to ask her to make appointments in her own time?

When DH was 54 Tesco retired him due to ill health.
Job Centre didnt see it as retired though.

There isnt a gap Its a fucking chasm.

Well clearly, none of us have come up with a solution! . Where do you go from here?

www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/early-retirement-because-of-illness-or-disability

Just had a thought, is it possible to job share?

Looking at your link, the first thing I noticed was the section on reasonable adjustments and support to keep your job if you’re sick or disabled. When I clicked through it suggested time off for appointments as a reasonable adjustment. Of course, what is reasonable depends on how much it costs and the size of the business.

So it comes back to whether having time off for 5 appointments in an academic year is ‘reasonable’. Remember, not all of those occasions were a full shift.

As an aside, where could I find someone to job share and take on those 5 mornings? That’s not a job share, that’s ‘supply cover’. Or are you suggesting that I give up some more of my (already part time) hours to a job share so that on those 5 occasions they can cover my job?

callmeadoctor No pension scheme would offer early retirement due to ill health because someone needs a few days off a year for appointments or treatment. Nowadays you would have to be off sick for about a year and considered incapable of doing a job anymore. Even People can get early retirement after 55 whether or not they are ill but they wouldn't get much pension as a result!.

Womanager I think that the only thing you can do in this situation is ignore your boss, stop feeling guilty and do what is best for you. She has to give you time off for your appointments whether she likes it or not.

Too many "mights" and "it's possibles" in that linked page to be able to take to town.

It's "possible" to win the lottery.

This thread is highlighting the gulf between what people think should happen and what actually happens.

So many people think that you are protected under the EA or that benefits bare available and it just isn't true.

I'm sick of people telling me to claim PIP - have a look at the criteria. It's not just a case of having an illness or having some difficulty doing specific things (even if those specific things have a profound effect on your life). You have to have enough points in order to be awarded anything.

Same with the EA. The only recourse you have under that is to take your employer to tribunal but that can be expensive, you'll pretty much guarantee losing your job for sticking your head above the parapet and how much compensation will you actually get?

Plus you only get 3 months less 1 day to go to tribunal, from some very woolly date. No o e seems quite sure what the start is.

So I requested reasonable adjustments in July 2018. I had to be referred to OH to be assessed. Fine. OH referral could only be done by 1 person who was on holiday for 3 weeks. Waited until they got back, they made the referral told me to wait 2 weeks. Great. 2 weeks comes and goes with nothing. They check and the referral didn't go through. This is now 6 weeks since my request went in. So half of the tribunal time limit. Another request is made and again a 2 week wait. Again, hasn't gone through. 8 weeks through time limit now. Finally a successful application is made and have appointment. They agree that I need special equipment so refer me to a company that they use at the end of September.

I'm now passed the 3 month deadline for going to tribunal, if you measure from date of first request but my union's advice was to wait for the employer as it would be better for me to not antagonise them and the best outcome would be for me to remain in my job. This dragged on and on - assessment finally happened in December. Equipment ordered but it took until April 2019 for it to arrive, and it isn't right! Yet my time to go to tribunal has long since passed. Unless you are in a position to immediately proceed to tribunal.at the first hint of trouble you are screwed. Plus, I doubt tribunals will take too kindly to.people running straight there without giving the employer a chance to comply. It is ridiculous but unless you have personal experience you have no idea about how difficult any of this is.

It's so easy to say take early retirement, leave your job, or some of the less kind comments that have been made on here. How do you propose that we live without working? The benefits definitely arent there so how do we pay bills or buy food?

As someone said, the difference between what employers and the government consider too ill to.work isn't a gap it's a chasm.

This thread is highlighting the gulf between what people think should happen and what actually happens.

I agree with you but with regard to my own comments I work in a similar field to OP and have a similar disease so my comment that she should ignore her bosses attitude, stop feeling guilty and do what is best for her is based on experience rather than what I think "should" happen.

So many people think that you are protected under the EA or that benefits are available and it just isn't true.

But do they ? Do they really ? Do they really "think" ? Or do they just parrot something they heard once, or indeed not at all, but sounds good.

It's shitty enough having a lifelong condition, without having to deal with an endless parade of people who suddenly become "expert" of every single nuance, wrinkle, and in and out of the morass that is the UKs spectacularly unjoined (and ever-shrinking) up health and social care provision.

Sorry, as seen on this thread (and there weren't that many posters to disguise the ignorance) very few people know much. Doubtless drawn from the same pool of people who think that every building somehow has a ramp and lift. That everyone who needs one has access to a wheelchair. That everyone who needs one has a carer. That every carer who has to look after someone 24/7 can also hold down a full time job and keep a family together. And that's the well-meaning ones. Beyond that you have the pondlife that think everyone is putting it on, and that disabled people are only in it for the benefits, parking and shits and giggles.

Want to talk disability in the UK ? I've got the rest of my - or DWs - lives to do something with. Wheelchair spaces on buses ? How about the OP not being able to attend an appointment because every bus in a row has buggies in the wheelchair spaces ?

@Dungeondragon15

I didn't mean all posters. I was referring to people making comments about just take early retirement, just job share, just make your hours up in the afternoon etc.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that no one on here understood.

I don't think people can realise how difficult it is until its them. In my job I've had people phoning up in tears begging for the first appointment of the day because either their boss or child's school is threatening them. Schools and (ironically) the NHS can be pretty terrible employers when it comes to this.

I don't think people can realise how difficult it is until its them.

I've no doubt "some" consultants/hospital depts have no flexibility. But a lot of people seem to just blindly accept what they're given without even asking for alternative options.

My OH was diagnosed with cancer last year. A month of various x-rays, scans, blood tests, bone narrow tests, taken over 3 different hospitals - for every single one, we phoned and re-arranged the appointments very easily. Throughout chemotherapy, appointments were likely really easy to arrange and change. For the past year, we have monthly consultant appointments and monthly blood tests/infusions and yet again, the day treatment unit and consultant have been completely flexible, basically we just agree the next appointment at the reception desks when leaving each appointment.

If you don't ask, you don't get.

All of the consultant's that I see hold clinics on a specific weekday and either morning or afternoon. So when I book I can choose times within the clinic eg Friday between 2pm and 5pm but I couldn't ask for Friday morning or Tuesday afternoon. It very much depends what your appointments are for - scans, x-rays, physio etc where the dept runs Monday to Friday (and some at weekends too) 9 - 5 then obviously they will be more flexible. An outpatient clinic, 1 session a week, no chance

I've no doubt "some" consultants/hospital depts have no flexibility. But a lot of people seem to just blindly accept what they're given without even asking for alternative options.

How do you know that people are "blindly accepting what they are given without asking for alternative options". The fact that your DH had cancer doesn't make you an expert on what it is like dealing with long term conditions. For my condition, different clinics are on specific days and although you can change the time during the clinic, there is no way you can change to another day in the same week.

Where does the assumption that people "blindly accept" anything even come from?

For the record I've spoken to plenty of patients who upon leaving clinic can't simply book the appointment they want or even one in the timeframe indicated by the consultant they've just seen because the clinic is too full.

In practice there is more leeway for cancer patients due to the gravity of missed treatment. Anything not life threatening is approached very differently.

I’m certainly not blindingly accepting anything but I think your case is the exception not the rule.

All of ds many consultants have limited clinic times each week. So we can’t be seen outside of them.

Some of the clinics are held once a month so if you can’t go that day then that it for a month

Like many consultants they have more patients than they can deal with so get booked well in advance. So if you have to rearrange there is nowhere to rearrange too.

Even when we book after the appointment due to the fact most of his appointments are 6-12 week review the “best” appointments are normally taken by those who have longer recalls. Chances of getting an appointment when it’s actually due are slim enough as it is!

I completely agree. Then factor in the appointment line being closed to incoming calls and how do you attempt to re book?

The number of times the drs say they'll see me in 2 months but first available appointment is 3 and a half months is ridiculous. How long would I be waiting if I then wanted to book it for a more convenient time?

I've just been today to have a 24 hour ECG. This was requested as urgent back in April. Appointment for 2pm today at a hospital a 1 hour train journey away. Allowing extra time for delays plus getting from station to hospital etc I left home at 12pm. At the appointment the technician asked if I would be at work during the test so I said no, I'd had to take today and tomorrow off (have to go back at 2 tomorrow to end the test) and she told me that wasn't ideal because they want to record me doing my usual routine. If that's the case why give people an appointment smack bang in the middle of the working day?

And even when you do manage to book an appointment there is no guarantee it won’t be rearranged by the hospital anyway!

It's tough, because whilst I sympathise with you for having to attend all these appointments, you are being paid when someone else has to cover your work.... Regardless of a company policy... Is that really fair on the person picking up your work, or the company for having to pay for cover?

Cancellations are a nightmare. The consultant puts in a request for annual leave and this can mean dozens of patients need rearranging when there may be no free space for months. Sometimes the clinic they get rebooked into gets cancelled and its start all over again. Consultants are almost never refused annual leave even if it causes chaos with appointments.

This is why some departments won't make appointments for people more than a month ahead (or some other limit). Obviously it can be problematic for people trying to arrange appointments around their day to day life.

I'm undecided as to which is the better system to be honest.

Is that really fair on the person picking up your work, or the company for having to pay for cover?

What do you suggest instead then? All sick and disabled people sacked? How do you suggest we live then? On benefits, that are non existent?

We can't have it both ways - on the 1 hand insist that disabled people must be in work and then on the other hand let employers refuse to employ them.

Some people on this thread may do well to remember they are only one accident or illness away from finding themselves needing a bit of extra support from the workplace and society as a whole

OP I suspect may be correct in her belief that the person is intentionally booking morning appointments when there are probably afternoon ones available. I doubt unfortunately there is an easy way to reduce or stop this happening, unless somehow you are aware that afternoon appointments are available, which would involve some snooping. That would lead to all possible sorts of accusations of harassment or victimisation should the person concerned wish to be awkward or simply be upset at being challenged.