To expect this employee to make appointments in her own time?

[Womanager]

Name changed for this.

I manage an employee with various long term health conditions. She works part time (mornings only), but it seems like every time she has a hospital appointment, she makes it in the mornings so she has to request time off work to attend. We have a policy regarding paid time off for appointments, but this women seems to be abusing it.

WIBU to ask her to make appointments in her own time?

Womanger wow maybe you shouldn't try and confuse people by pretending it's role reversal.

To be fair it's a great way to see who has RTFT

5 absences from work over a whole academic year doesn't seem like that much to me, given the seriousness of your condition. I thought you were going to say you were off every week!
I do have sympathy for employers when having to make accommodations for unwell employees - it's expensive and often difficult to get the right cover. From their pov they just need to have the employee there because without you other members of staff have an increased workload. Places like schools get it in the neck from govt and parents if they are not providing subject specialists for lessons or when there are too many supply teachers, so they are under pressure to have the right staff in place. But your absences really don't seem that much, so imo yanbu and your employer is being an arse.
No advice except to keep written records of everything and change what you can. Maybe have a chat to HR in case you need to raise an issue later.

I do have sympathy for employers when having to make accommodations for unwell employees

What's the answer then? I've got 18 hospital in 4 months and I am taking them all as holiday. That leaves me with only 4 days holiday until April next year and I will definitely have many more hospital appointments before then - I will have to take them unpaid which I can't really afford to do. It also means that I will have no annual leave to take just as holiday. But what can I do? Give up work? Then how will I afford to live?

The only way to stop employees needing to take time off for appointments is to let people claim benefits which the government won't do - people are compelled to stay in work even when they are ill or have a disability but then employers make it so hard when we need to have treatment for our conditions.

Honestly, what are we meant to do?

There's nothing you can do. In feeling sympathy for the employer, it doesn't mean I don't feel sympathy for you too.

@FloofenHoofen. Perhaps you should stop being an arse and realise that you cannot always change hospital appointments. And that some courses of treatment need to be held at specific dates and even times that they need to take place.

You may be able to change routine or non important appointments but in many cases it just can't be done without having a detrimental affect on the patient.

It's simple. If you have a medical need your employer should make sure you can meet the given appointments.

Honestly, what are we meant to do?

I think unless you're a chronic sufferer, with all the appointments that go along with it it's difficult to comprehend. I'd rather think that than people being nasty bastards. Our lives are literally controlled by appointments, tests, treatment and medication.

I'm very impressed though, I had an appointment yesterday, had to rearrange (squits), I'm being seen tomorrow! (Would have been December otherwise).

I hope your appointments go well Decomposing.

• My last employer introduced the No Time Off For Appointments.

This meant I stopped receiving the medication I needed to keep me functioning - it was conditional upon attending hospital regularly for blood tests (that couldn't be done at the GP) and reviews of my blood results (so I wouldn't die).*

JFC. My DP has RA and has this same setup. Her pain levels without the meds are insane. Pisses me off so much you've gone through this.

For example, a tiny corner shop isn't expected to have level access for wheelchairs, but a supermarket or bank has to provide a ramp.

It's not that simple. There are five banks in my local town. None have wheelchair access. Multiply a few times for no access and you have an idea what access is like. For a wheelchair accessible supermarket I have to travel four miles, a bank nine miles. There's a doctors practice where I used to live with steps, you have to have someone who can bump you up them. Dentists are even worse. Rumble strips are just as bad and can be a nightmare to get over.

It's discriminatory under the DDA/Equality Act but doing anything about it really is not that easy, takes months, and WTAF am I meant to do in the meantime?

Just remember that she may be classed as disabled and therefore covered by the equality act. Saying that, it doesn’t mean she should be given unlimited time off. Sometimes hospital appointments are difficult to dictate what time you get. Could you ask her to make some time up in the,afternoon?

WineIsMyMainVice RTFT

You may be able to change routine or non important appointments but in many cases it just can't be done without having a detrimental affect on the patient.

Exactly. One of the reasons we need the equality act in the first place is because so many people are totally clueless about what it is like to live with a chronic condition and that it is not possible to change appointments without it having a potentially very serious impact in health.

So as this is a reverse, can I ask the OP whether any negative comments or threats have been made? Or is this all theoretical?

Choice regarding NHS appointments in secondary care is basically non-existent. You’re either attending the one on the letter they’ve sent out, or you’re waiting for another 6 weeks.

SimplySteveRedux

Thank you.

The way people with a disability or chronic illness are treated in this country make me despair. So many people say you're covered by the EA - yes in theory, but how do you enforce it? If your employer won't support you then what choices do you have?

If you do your best to stay in work then you are criticised for taking too much time off to go to appointments. If you give up work you are criticised for being on benefits (if you can even claim them in the 1st place).

I don't get things like PIP - if I could get that then I could cut my hours down and make it easier to attend appointments but pip seems to be only based on a very narrow criteria - can you walk a certain distance, cook for yourself, dress yourself - but what about other factors like treatment that you need or how much pain you are in and what you have to do to deal with it? Lots of things will impact on your ability to function not just how far you can walk or if you can dress yourself.

It may be that the clinic only runs at those times. I had a similar situation about 12 years ago and when my employer tried to stop me attending appointments I took them to a tribunal for disability discrimination and won (in fact, they settled out of court two days before the tribunal hearing, obviously having realised that the judge would wipe the floor with them).

The way people with a disability or chronic illness are treated in this country make me despair. So many people say you're covered by the EA - yes in theory, but how do you enforce it? If your employer won't support you then what choices do you have?

I belong to a union which would help. You can also get advice from the disability law service dls.org.uk/

If your boss gets narky about this I would say that you are more than happy to use TOIL to cover it and then start making a note of extra hours worked. For the amount of appmt s mentioned it sounds like you are doing your best in difficult circumstances. Speaking from a manager's point of view, I think it is important to be empathetic and supportive but it does become difficult covering need s of service if you have a small team and a few have complex medical stuff going on. I can see both sides of the situation.

My union hasn't been at all helpful - anything that I've got at work I've got by myself.

I've spoken to so many helplines - their views have all been the same - if your employer doesn't want to help then there isn't much you can do. Ultimately it boils down to what is considered "reasonable". And what is that? What if you need more appointments than is considered reasonable? What do you do then?

Businesses are not required to support those who are too ill to hold down a job by being forced to give unlimited time off for health reasons (be that sick leave or scheduled appointments)

If the employee is capable of working within reason then an annualised hours contract may be appropriate. EG estimate that over the course of a year an employee normally expected to work 15 hours a week, 46 weeks a year allowing for annual leave (690 hours), due to absence will typically manage 600 hours over the year so contract for that, and there's 90 hours of budget available for covering the absence.

If the absence is greater than the employer can reasonably absorb and a flexible arrangement like that can't be managed then a capability assessment can and will conclude that the person is not able to fulfil the requirements of the job, and it is then not discriminatory to terminate the employment.

I've spoken to so many helplines - their views have all been the same - if your employer doesn't want to help then there isn't much you can do. Ultimately it boils down to what is considered "reasonable". And what is that? What if you need more appointments than is considered reasonable? What do you do then?

Has you employer refused to let you attend appointments?

No, but I have to take them as annual leave (or unpaid when annual leave runs out) and they are starting to comment on the frequency and sometimes short notice of them.

Businesses are not required to support those who are too ill to hold down a job by being forced to give unlimited time off for health reasons (be that sick leave or scheduled appointments)

Except there's a massive gap between what am employer thinks is too I'll to hold down a job and what the government classes as too I'll. Where does that leave the sick and disabled? Or do we not matter?

Businesses are not required to support those who are too ill to hold down a job by being forced to give unlimited time off for health reasons (be that sick leave or scheduled appointments)

I think people realise that. OP isn't too sick to work though and it doesn't sound as if she has had that much time off for appointments either (most have been in her own time) so difficult to see how it would not be discriminatory to refuse to let her go for the appointments.

Except there's a massive gap between what am employer thinks is too I'll to hold down a job and what the government classes as too I'll. Where does that leave the sick and disabled? Or do we not matter?

True. I'm hoping that if my employer decides I am too sick to do my job my pension provider will have to let me retire due to ill health. Are you in a work pension scheme?

My ex husband has MS & before we divorced I used to attend clinic appointments with him. The time on the appointment letter never represented the time he got to see the consultant, often it could be 2-3 hours later than the appointment time, it got so bad that the hospital had to start giving patients sandwiches & drinks because the wait was so long.