To expect this employee to make appointments in her own time?

[Womanager]

Name changed for this.

I manage an employee with various long term health conditions. She works part time (mornings only), but it seems like every time she has a hospital appointment, she makes it in the mornings so she has to request time off work to attend. We have a policy regarding paid time off for appointments, but this women seems to be abusing it.

WIBU to ask her to make appointments in her own time?

@Womanager you said that you went to occupational health but have you referred your employee to occupational health? It would be good to know if she is covered.

Just because you are able to schedule some of yours outside hours doesn't necessarily mean she can. She is likely seeing a different hospital, doctor, specialists, etc. who only work certain times/days.

An additional factor to consider is that it may be possible to schedule them for afternoons for some things but the afternoons may often have huge delays. If her condition includes fatigue issues she may not be capable of working her shift and then enduring the long waits involved. If so, it is frequently considered a reasonable adjustment to allow time off for appointments.

Or she may need her afternoons for other responsibilities that don't stop just because she has an appointment.

It may feel frustrating and unreasonable, especially when you are making these changes where possible with your own appointments. But the health of your employee should always come first. It is just the nature of the beast when it comes to having employees and you don't really want to be the kind of employer who discriminates.

@MoonNoodles - the OP hasn’t got an employee. She herself is the employee.

At least you work in the public sector and have things like OH, sick pay and paid time off for appointments. (Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t wish chronic illness on anyone).

I ended up losing my job in a small company to my chronic health condition, as they couldn’t find someone to keep covering my appointments and I couldn’t afford all the unpaid time off. Now I’m living the high life on ESA (ha bloody ha).

I don't mind the reverse- sometimes its useful to get a different viewpoint.
Have you looked into Access to work, there might be some support available via them.

”Sorry guys, I know AIBU hates these, but it’s actually a reverse.”

YABU, why do that?! Just explain your situation and ask for advice. Ideally not in AIBU.

Doh - reverse!

New advice, get your union involved.

I teach, and over the last couple of years have had a lot of appointments because of a chronic nerve issue in my face. My initial appointments were at the dentist, and I booked those around my timetable, but hospital appointments were just when I was given. My manager didn’t even ask to see the letters (although I always emailed him a copy to make sure all was in order) and just wanted me to get the diagnosis and support I needed. I was really lucky.

There are often threads on here about teachers and too many holidays, but the difficulty of working term-time, and around a rigid timetable is that it is really hard to get time for medical appointments. I felt awful each time a colleague had to cover a class, despite the fact I would have rather been with my students than in an MRI scanner!

@daisypond oh I only just saw where she said its a reverse. ugh.

I’mn going to go against the grain somewhat here, But I would say that if your apppointments are so regular and long term and always during work time then the reality is that you’re not able to work at the moment and should be looking into alternatives, however hard that may be.

It can be very difficult if you have a disability or health condition (and I have both) but truth is that if you’re employed to do a job and you are unable to fulfill that job due to regular absences then you’re not actually doing the job for the most part. And I speak as someone who has both a disability and a life limiting health condition.

My disability does not preclude me from work, but my health condition does or has done until hopefully recently. I have had some intervention which hopefully will enable me to find a job again in the near future, but not until I’ve been through a series of tests and appointments and rehabilitation. Working is unfortunately not just about you it’s about being part of a team, and while it is perfectly understandable to have some appointments during working hours it’s also fair to say that if those appointments are so frequent that they’re affecting your employer etc then you should look into ESA or similar - such benefits exist for people who are unable to work...

Having said that, there are definitely also people who take the piss, my DP has a colleague for instance who seems to always be signed off during the school holidays, and anyone who believes that a GP wouldn’t just write out an extended note is deluding themselves. She does have a condition which means that she has some time off, but it seems to always be about a week before the holidays and should only be a week but then extends to the full duration of the holidays. Coincidence? I think not.

i’mn going to go against the grain somewhat here, But I would say that if your apppointments are so regular and long term and always during work time then the reality is that you’re not able to work at the moment and should be looking into alternatives, however hard that may be.

And if she goes for a PIP/ESA assessment and they say actually she's not disabled enough to get help in that way because she's physically capable of walking to one end of the room and lifting a telephone?

I agree that besides maybe consultant appointments which are less flexible, I have always found the nhs services to be very accommodating for time of appointments. You don't wait to be offered one and then ask as indeed, it will then likely mean a delay, but call before.

I have found diagnostics to be always very accommodating as are nursing appointments. There will inevitably be times when it can't be help but can you say that you have really been trying to see if you could have afternoon appointments.

And if she goes for a PIP/ESA assessment and they say actually she's not disabled enough to get help in that way because she's physically capable of walking to one end of the room and lifting a telephone? well, she needs to cross that bridge when she comes to it. Reality is that it’s a fine line. Employers do need to be accommodating to an extent as do the DWP. But the truth is that if someone has more time off for appointments than they are working then they are not best suited to that job or those hours etc. By the same token if an individual has so many appointments that work is not a realistic prospect then this should be taken into account in the event the individual cannot work and when they’re making a claim.

Employers do need to be accommodating to an extent as do the DWP

Well the DWP aren't so that is that.

Well the DWP aren't so that is that.

Exactly. Too sick to work but not sick enough to receive disability benefits and told by the DWP you need to work.

Well the DWP aren't so that is that. It’s not that simple though is it? It’s very easy to sit on the sidelines and talk about how employers should accommodate every absence, but there comes a point where those absences affect everyone else the employer can’t be blamed for being somewhat aggrieved by them.

At this point we don’t know to what extent the OP is taking time off. If it’s an occasional occurrence then that is one thing, but if it was e.g. once a week then the employer can’t be held responsible for being somewhat aggrieved at that, especially as the OP says she is unable to make up the time elsewhere.

And if people are honest, there are very, very few who would employ people who say needed one day off a week from the outset. Even the ones who say that the employers here are unreasonable.

Sadly schools are a hard one for things like this. I worked in a school and it did get to the point where ds health and appointments made working there impossible because it was having a knock on on the children I was working with (as well as my mental health)

There is a lot less room for flexibility in a school which adds pressure all around.

(I’m not for a second saying OP should stop working though only she can know if that is an answer or not)

I worked as a primary school teacher for over 10 years in 3 different schools. There were always issues coming up relating to health problems for various staff members. In all cases the headteachers came up with solutions by rejigging timetables slightly, changing the hours of some part-timers etc (all with agreement of those involved).

I really think the OP's headteacher could do more to accommodate this issue. If she is regularly needing to go to an appointment on Tuesday mornings for treatment then the timetable should be changed to take account of this - ie. OP has Tuesday mornings free but comes in on Tuesday afternoon.
If the OP's hours are being used to cover PPA time for example, there is no reason why the teacher she covers on Tuesday mornings can't have their PPA time on a Tuesday afternoon instead.

It's obviously not easy to rearrange things like this but it can be done and I have seen it several times in practice - where there's a will there's a way.

I think OP's headteacher does not want to think of a solution for this as their desired solution could well be to "encourage" the OP to move on and to get in someone else who does not have health problems.

And if people are honest, there are very, very few who would employ people who say needed one day off a week from the outset. Even the ones who say that the employers here are unreasonable.

Then there is a huge disconnect between what employers expect and what the DWP expect and the ones that really suffer are the people left without a job and no other income. Someone in my therapy group works despite needing 2.30 hours of therapy a week (but she works for a mental health charity so maybe they have more understanding). It's a real kick in the face to be told by employers you can't work and be told by official bodies that you can.

It's highly possible that her consultant now has to cover more than one hospital in the area, so is only at that particular location on a particular day and time. Until my mid-30s I'd always had disgustingly good health and been a bit dismissive of "health problems" in others.

Then everything changed, as it often can, overnight...I've also had many friends and relatives in the same situation; when we hit our late 40s and early 50s the health fun REALLY started with long-term conditions. Luckily when I was first ill I was working in the NHS at the time and our policies were very, very clear. I also had departments that were happy for me to make time up if necessary.

We have a similar policy but if someone is having a lot of time off we then take it as unpaid. It's funny how when they don't get paid for it they can suddenly get appointments outside of work hours. I had one member off staff who was taking her whole (3.5) hour shift off to attend hospital every 6 weeks/8 weeks. After about about 6+ months she had reached the limit so I said anymore time will be unpaid. She has never asked for a hospital appointment again.

While you often can't change the day ie if a clinic is only on an afternoon in my experience you can choose the time, especially if this is ongoing and you book your next appointment at the current one. So it's not unreasonable to try and get it at the start of end of her shift to limit the impact. I always do that for both me and my DC's appointments and it's never been an issue.

OP you are not capable of fulfilling the role you are supposed to be doing. Unless you can change your appointment times I'm not quite sure why you feel this falls down to the employer to accomodate, rather than you? Why can't you change your appountment times?

I don't think it's allowed to make people quit under circs like these, is it?

Or going without treatment for something like ms because work comes first.

Some people are just bastards i guess.

After about about 6+ months she had reached the limit so I said anymore time will be unpaid. She has never asked for a hospital appointment again.

And you decided that's because she was taking the piss and changed all her appointments after that, rather than went without medical care because she couldn't afford it?

Unless you can change your appointment times I'm not quite sure why you feel this falls down to the employer to accomodate, rather than you? Because it’s the law. Hospital appointments count as reasonable adjustments if you’re classed as having a disability.