To expect this employee to make appointments in her own time?

[Womanager]

Name changed for this.

I manage an employee with various long term health conditions. She works part time (mornings only), but it seems like every time she has a hospital appointment, she makes it in the mornings so she has to request time off work to attend. We have a policy regarding paid time off for appointments, but this women seems to be abusing it.

WIBU to ask her to make appointments in her own time?

It's shocking you're being harassed despite being covered by the Equality Act and providing proof of appointments and making every effort to book in your own time when available and regularly working unpaid time which you believe is at least equal to the time off. I really don't see what more you could be doing to minimise the effect of your (genuine and necessary) absence.

If you don't already, I would be keeping a diary of every last unpaid instance. Whether that's 10 mins or an hour - it all adds up. Not that you should have to do this given you're protected under the Equality Act but surely to goodness this in itself should be enough to close down any suggestion of you somehow swinging the lead.

It's unfortunate that your manager may be left short staffed at particular times but it can't be helped and isn't your fault - anyone of us, them included, could find themselves in a similar position one day. Agree that seeking union advice might be a good idea.

Of course, if we scrapped the NHS, and moved to an insurance based system, the OP could have her appointments whenever they like. Of course they might not be able to get insurance, but that would be their own fault for having MS anyway.

DW has MS, and in the past month we have had:

2 neurologist appointments
1 Intrathecal Pump Refill appointment
1 UTI botox appointment
2 wheelchair services appointments
3 GP appointments
and had to wait in for 2 OT visits

The only ones that could be arranged were the GP appointments. All others are just sent out.

Of course if DW had to claim contribution based ESA, then thats all time she would not be job hunting. That is looking for a job that you can access with a wheelchair, and get to by magic.

We don't even know if the employee in question has even ever asked for a more convenient appointment do we?

It's a bit presumptious to say that they can't as we just don't know.

Lots of people "assuming" that the appointments are only on a certain morning one day a week and that if you ask for a different one you'll wait months, and the like, but we just don't know if that's the case here.

If I were the employer, I'd certainly be asking the question whether different appointments are available. In my experience, both myself and OH have been able to change appointments quite easily once you get past the huffing and puffing. For regular/repeat appointments, I tend to ensure I have made the next appointment before I leave the clinic/dept after each appointment - it saves all the hassle (both sides) of them making a random appointment and then us having to phone and change it - you also usually have more choice as the appointment will be further away, whereas if you wait for them to issue a random appointment, it will be nearer the time and there'll be fewer alternative options when closer.

The only ones that could be arranged were the GP appointments. All others are just sent out.

And yet we've easily managed to rearrange MRI scans, skeletal x-ray, bone marrow sampling, chemotherapy appointments, infusion drip sessions, etc.

In fact, in our case, the pain in the neck appointments are at the GP, even for regular blood tests, where amazingly, they only take blood for tests one morning per week and that's booked up for 2/3 weeks ahead.

Different areas have different circumstances. That's why the question needs to be asked of the worker in the original post whether they've even tried to book more convenient appointments rather than just blindly accept what they're given - after all, it's easy for them, a day off work is easier than phoning to re-arrange so why would they bother unless they're challenged about it.

I'm guessing you work for a small business where this can have a major impact. It's not unreasonable to ask her to try and make her appointments in her own time. I've never had a problem changing mine, although I do recognize that sometimes this isn't possible. Have you had a conversation with her about it?

To those people who work for large organizations, many of the provisions you take for granted just aren't feasible in small businesses e.g. private health insurance, temp cover, etc.

@Kazzyhoward - the OP has since come back to explain this is a reverse and that she's the employee in question (not the manager). She's also described the level of control she has over appointments.

One day I got a rather stroppy letter from the hospital warning that if I requested another changed appt I’d go back to the bottom of the waiting list. Baffled, as I hadn’t requested the change I phoned up to be told “Oh, it’s us that’s moved the clinic day that week, but this counts as one of you’re requested changes”!

I can relate, I had five consecutive appointments rearranged by the hospital over 20 months. The consultant was very off with me, it was only when I received a copy of the letter sent to my GP I realised why. Secretary apologised and had my notes updated, luckily I'd been in frequent contact during tests.

@Fiontar649 - You are bang on the money. It is a hospital consultant in Ireland that I attend and like you say if you mention it to the receptionist on the way out they are very good at accommodating you. It probably helped that a high percentage of people with my illness don't work so the first appointment wasn't hard to get

Having seen it's a reverse, YANBU.
I have MS plus another auto immune illness and a dc with AN. The hospital have failed to send me a letter about my last two appointments. I have had a reminder text a week before so I find out then. To rebook means delaying that appointment for a month or more. I've just had my January appointment following a cancellation of the clinic and me having to rearrange the replacement appointment. And that wasn't with the specialist consultant.
Fortunately my manager is a decent person and I don't get any grief.

@cstaff - luckily I don't have many appointments each year so time doesn't really matter. I can see how if this increased to monthly or weekly, I would have to try to get more early morning slots. SVUH have upped their game for MRIs though - my last 2 have been Friday at 9.45pm and Saturday.

One of ds clinics runs once a month for a morning. He is already booked in the next two but as that clinic covers the whole county (at least three different NHS trusts) you don’t get to pick appointments and even if you did it’s at least a 40 minute drive each way so takes the whole morning anyways

And yet we've easily managed to rearrange MRI scans, skeletal x-ray, bone marrow sampling, chemotherapy appointments, infusion drip sessions, etc.

Good for you. So anyone who can't is lying ?

So anyone who can't is lying?

I don’t think anyone is saying you’re lying.

But I think it’s reasonable to point out to the people saying “appointments are sent and you have no say” that actually, some people have a different experience?

And yet we've easily managed to rearrange MRI scans, skeletal x-ray, bone marrow sampling, chemotherapy appointments, infusion drip sessions, etc.
I am really really surprised by this. When I tried to rearrange my MRI I was told the next appointment was 2 months further away. So yes I could easily rearrange it, but I would have been waiting even longer for a diagnostic test.

And yet we've easily managed to rearrange MRI scans, skeletal x-ray, bone marrow sampling, chemotherapy appointments, infusion drip sessions, etc.

I attend a clinic every three months, which they only run the first Thursday of the month. Apparently it the best attended clinic in the hospital, and you have to be on a waiting list to be accepted for the treatment they give, due to a limited budget and it’s a drug people will need for life. Please explain then how people could ask for their injection to be at any other time, than the first Thursday of the month, bearing in mind they have lots of people waiting, who would be only too glad to get the treatment at all?

I am really really surprised by this. When I tried to rearrange my MRI I was told the next appointment was 2 months further away. So yes I could easily rearrange it, but I would have been waiting even longer for a diagnostic test.

Different hospitals have different circumstances. When we re-arranged my OHs, we actually got an earlier appointment - they told us that they hold back a number of appointments each day for urgent scans (i.e. cancers) and in patients, which are released a few days before, so we got an appointment a couple of weeks earlier than the one sent by letter.

No one is saying people are lying. But just blindly accepting what you're first offered just assuming you can't change it is not right either. Yes, "some" clinics/consultants may say you'll go to the back of the queue and wait longer, but "some" will have flexibility. Why not at least ask rather than assuming it's fixed?

Did occupational health out this in writing to you? They should have confirmed in writing to your employer but if you have a letter yourself you could give copy to your employer.

I understand if you work in a school it's not as if you can swap shifts and go to work in the afternoon, plus which you may not feel well enough to go back to work afterwards.

Please explain then how people could ask for their injection to be at any other time, than the first Thursday of the month, bearing in mind they have lots of people waiting, who would be only too glad to get the treatment at all?

I have never said ALL appointments are flexible. What I am saying is that people should at least ask for a more convenient appointment rather than blindly accepting that all appointments are cast in stone, whereas our experience is that most appointments have been flexible.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

What a coincidence they’re all in work time?

No, only the ones my employer hears about. I have managed to arrange 3 out of 4 infusion appointments in my own time. Of my consultant appointments, I have NO choice over those except if I can’t make it, I can rebook but that means waiting another couple of months. I am already waiting for my 6 monthly appointment after I was last seen early December. And my consultants only work mornings. Of my 2 consultants this time round, I am seeing one in work time and one is in school holidays.

All appointments I book myself (blood tests, gp prescription checks) are out of school time.

But I think it’s reasonable to point out to the people saying “appointments are sent and you have no say” that actually, some people have a different experience?

On the one hand. On the other hand, any employer reading this thread will make that their take-home message, and decide their employee isn't trying hard enough. Especially if they've already decided they're going to be unreasonable in any event.

Actually I've just been nudged and reminded that the wheelchair services appointments were arranged by calling the clinic on receipt of a letter to arrange an appointment. Not quite sure though, because there was only one to chose from.

Just for lolz, I also have a chronic condition that had 2/3 consults a year. Before each consult, I need to do a field vision test. Invariably the test is on a different day to the consult. So when I was working it was double-trouble ...

I’ve seen many clinics that say only run in the morning or only run in the afternoon and say for example , only run on a Wednesday .

Yes and they tend to send an appointment , and people don’t generally get a say to what appointment they get allocated .

It can also be very hard to get an appointment changed , with months waiting to get another appointment to the point that the hospital are then not able to offer another appointment within the time period clinically specified by the doctor , therefore for a lot of people they need to go out of their way to make sure they can attend the one they are allocated .

If this lady has multiple appointments at the hospital I can’t imagine it’s much fun for her .often having to be there for hours . I’m sure she’d much rather be at work .

If this lady has multiple appointments at the hospital

Who said anything about "the" hospital. Around here there are a constellation of locations ...

as pp state you also get appointment changed by hospital - ie a recent hospital appoint changed by 6 months delay because consultant had holiday & frequently with this department we have had time changes - in our area while you MIGHT have some choice in some investigations - treatment is stipulated in specific hospital - as for choosing & changing hospital appointments - again months wait - if your lucky!

One of my dds linics runs every two months on a Wednesday morning. You could reschedule, but only for the Wednesday morning 2 months later.

it’s a superclinic, so she sees two consultants from different disciplines at once (immunology and haematology/oncology).

Bummer that you are left short staffed, but if your employee is having regular MRIs/treatment/clinic appointments, they are likely dealing with a serious illness, which is a bigger bummer.

I did wonder if it was a school....

They do tend to oust people with frequent absences as they just cant make the time up and cover is expensive...