To expect this employee to make appointments in her own time?

[Womanager]

Name changed for this.

I manage an employee with various long term health conditions. She works part time (mornings only), but it seems like every time she has a hospital appointment, she makes it in the mornings so she has to request time off work to attend. We have a policy regarding paid time off for appointments, but this women seems to be abusing it.

WIBU to ask her to make appointments in her own time?

I have chronic illnesses. There is no way that I can return to my current job as I need a walking stick to get round and help me stand. Even with the stick, I can't stand for long periods due to pain and dizziness. I have told my employer that, once my current fit note runs out, if I am to return, I will need to be able to use my walking stick and have somewhere to sit. My employer has decided that I won't need my walking stick when I return to work. I'm trying desperately to find a new job, but am struggling to even get an interview. I'm dreading the next meeting with my boss as, I need a job to pay the bills (DWP say I'm not disabled enough for PIP, and my wages have been too low to entitle me to ESA due to no NI payments. Work say my wages haven't been high enough for SSP, so have had to survive since April on student loan and that's now run out), but trying to do my job without my walking stick is just asking for trouble and could potentially see me in hospital with bad injuries.

Jarimbert - please get in touch with your local welfare rights office or someone like Christians against poverty

None of that sounds remotely correct and you are being failed on so many things.

Also contact acas for advice.

Does your condition have a charity that can advise and support? Most do.

Womanager
V. sorry cannot read thread - ignore me if covered.
1). All my hospital appts have to be in the morning as the clinic for my Consultant is only in the mornings.

2). She is taking the pee if she has lots (more than one a year) of appts.
therefore
3). She should swap her shift to work in the afternoon to make up for it.

4). It's all v well having chronic health conditions. - I suffer from more than one, and am disabled - but there's a point where you can't abuse your fellow workers like this and keep dumping your job on them!

People who are chronic sick/disabled and expect constant special treatment at work don't do the rest of us who are disabled any favours. She has to accept it isn't her colleague's fault she has this condition, and she can't dump on them.

Hope this helps sorry to arrive late and not time to catch up.

Good luck!!

Your employer is awful Jarimbert. As well as Graphista suggestions perhaps try the disability law service (dls.org.uk/)

Jarimbert. please appeal PIP but go to CAB first and explain.

Go back to your Doctor and tell him/her life is really bad. Do not hold back on anything. Make sure he/she knows what it's like at it's worst.

CAB should be able to help. You sound v disabled to me. I cannot stand up either. I am dreading when they come to assess me for this draconian PIP because at the mo I'm on the old DLA. PIP doesn't seem to understand about not being able to stand up due to pain!

I was told CAB will go through everything and explain how they assess and explain to you so you give your answers accurately. It's not cheating - it's knowing that you must use the terminology they use. Bloody stupid - but they are robots working machines not human beings.

Sending you lots of love, good luck Pet, x 💐

HawaiianLion

Hugs and best wishes to your little man and you. 🌈🦋🚜(for him)

OP, your OP was from the point of view of the employer so forgive me for not realising that it's actually you with the health issues.

perhaps try the disability law service (dls.org.uk/)

I'd never heard of them and I consider myself fairly well informed in this area purely from own and dds experience.

Love mn for such knowledge being spread.

It’s not unreasonable to ask if you can have the appointments at a different time but assuming the answer is no, as it often is, the boss should STFU. Of course they need to let an employee have time off to deal with appointments for serious health conditions, ffs health comes before some poxy job.

I suppose the difficulties are around (a) paying you for all the time off. That may depend firstly on the work policy and how it treats non disabled employees as well as disabled ones. If they pay for appointments then it’s not unreasonable to have a limit on that (except ante natal appointments which are treated differently) but for a disabled employee it would probably be reasonable to increase that. And
(b) whether there are so many appointments that even making adjustments for your disability that you basically can no longer do your job. In which case they’d be wise to look at something like Occ Health to see if they have any recommendations or suggestions to support you.

Actually, having RTFT, i have some sympathy for both sides. Schools' budgets are utterly fucked at the moment, so it has a fairly major impact if they have to pay two lots of salaries for the same job. Also, obviously, it's not your fault you are ill and you need the money, too. But if your line manager has an issue with you, they should implement the sickness procedure properly not just be snarky.

I work FT so hospital appointments mean I have to take time off whatever day they are
I go to haematology every 12 weeks and use annual leave as sometimes I can be there for hours. Told my employer at the start that I would need a full day off, every 12 weeks and that was that. They've been really good but some employers make life really bloody hard

Oh and I can't move my appointment. It's on a Tuesday, the consultant is only in that day. I could make a 9am appointment but there's no guarantee I get seen at that time. I get there an hour beforehand for bloods to be taken, sent off and come back before the consultant sees me. Then wait, and wait. See consultant. Go to queue at pharmacy.. and so on

I think it is a bit rich of an OP to post a reverse and then moan at people who haven't realised it is one.

@Ellyess mine takes a full day, every 12 weeks and I'm definitely not taking the piss. I'm not even disabled, so someone who is may well have a lot more appointments than me. And I work FT, 40hrs a week so no I can't swap my shifts to when I don't work as the consultant only does Tuesdays
Luckily my employer is reasonable as I informed them at interview and I use annual leave
If they're under staffed that day, they have to suck it up as they know 12 weeks in advance when my appointment will be

PIP doesn't seem to understand about not being able to stand up due to pain!

Each of their activities has four additional criteria that should be taken into account.

Can you carry out the activities reliably
When the assessor decides which descriptor applies to you, they must consider whether you can carry out the activity reliably. This means:
• safely in a way that is unlikely to cause harm either to you or anyone else, either during the activity or afterwards
• to an acceptable standard
• repeatedly as often as is reasonably required
• in a reasonable time period - should take you no more than twice as long someone without your condition

From www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/pip/appeals/how-decisions-are-made/

Oh, and for a PIP claim you're completely entitled to submit a typed document instead of using their form, I find allows more space and removes having to write. Just make sure their questions are reproduced in full from their document and that you sign and date their form.

I agree it can be difficult to change appointments, and in my experience the NHS (particularly the receptionists) get very huffy if you try.

At my second scan (pg with DS) I had to change it for work as my section of the Gov Bill was in Lords Committee and I needed to be there. Receptionist sniffed that 'they only normally change them for funerals' and 'did I know that my work had to give me paid time off'.

I don't see what else you can do op - other than consult your union if you're in one.

Not sure it's been mentioned yet, but at a lot of the clinics I attended for my 'main' chronic illnesses (type 1 diabetes and related eye stuff in different hospitals) they don't do individual appointments. A small group are all told to come along for the first appointment of the day and for each subsequent slot, so you are inevitably waiting a while.

Worth it for the excellent care, but it's a time consuming process.

Also - when I rescheduled appointments with one of my clinics a couple of times in a row, the (new) receptionist person commented that if I kept rescheduling they might discharge me - they did apologise and said they spoke out of turn after checking my notes, but I was a bit shaken. I have so many appointments and am doing my best, I really didn't need the slight threat of being kicked out of my clinic!

I wish employers knew how difficult it can be on a day to day basis to juggle chronic illness.

Just curious, but does the requirement to see hospital appointment letters not conflict with privacy rules? Especially as the letter will list the clinic/part of hospital required to attend, along with any other medical requirements prior to being seen.

"Just curious, but does the requirement to see hospital appointment letters not conflict with privacy rules?"

Yes, a friend of mine complained about her line manager knowing what was wrong with her because she'd had to show her letter. I think managers tell their staff they have to show the letter, when in fact it cannot really be a requirement for data protection reasons.

Womanager
(Missed my phone call so am back)

I am so very sorry to learn that you are coping with MS.

I am upset to find we have all been manipulated and lied to about the fact that you are the one having appts during morning work time. I do not like dishonesty and I regard this as dishonest.

I cannot change my views written above, but I see now that you have had 5 mornings off in 3 terms - unless I have missed something. That seems reasonably bearable to me. I taught in my first career. Can you tell us if this is correct or if not how many mornings have you missed in a full school year? I see that your school cannot afford cover for you though. Anyway, it is never as good for the children as their regular Teacher.

I think you have already had your answer from your Headteacher, or Boss as you say on p.4 she confirmed I am covered by EA and therefore should be granted the time off.

i don't know why you are asking us therefore or playing games with us by pretending to be your own boss with an employee doing what you are doing. You have your answer from your Boss 8 pages ago.

My feelings are that right now you seem to be going through a lot of health interventions and tests and are suffering a set back with the MS. My second career taught me that this is very distressing emotionally - not surprisingly! I wonder therefore if worrying about the work situation and appointments has become a bit more of an anxiety than it need be? Obviously the treatment does affect you at times for more than one day. It is clear that your life at the moment is being very much affected by the MS. This must be pretty awful, without having to think about negotiating your appointments.

Frankly, for member of staff who has served 10 years I would happily give her time for appointments in your situation. You are, after all, not missing very many mornings! From the initial post it sounded as if the employee /you was away at least once a week! Even that in a school might be manageable. I know paying for Supply is a stretch but if it were needed on a regular basis and the same person could cover then the children would not suffer at all. Indeed I did a bit of it myself after I became disabled and was not working but found I could do about a morning a week. I went to the same lovely school and got to know it and the Teacher I was covering for.

You are the one who has to take responsibility for deciding the best way through. You see right now as a passing phase which you hope will lead to a brighter future when the MS will go into remission or be kept under control again. You know best. Maybe you need to make a decision about how long you will give it. We have the long Summer break almost upon us which is great so that I hope will help. I'm sure you have found out how the hot weather affects you. It can be terribly draining.

I will take the courage to say what people may feel too upset to say. You must think about at what stage you will stop teaching and give yourself more opportunity to rest. You need to prepare for this and have an idea about when and why and under what conditions you will take this step. It does not mean this is going to happen any time soon. But just getting yourself ready, having a plan about how you might decide, will make it easier. Even if things change and your plan changes.

I had to take early retirement due to disability. It's not MS but so many people think it is because I have so many similar symptoms. I get a lot of pain, weakness and immense exhaustion. I can say that when I did retire it was a relief. I thought I would be depressed and cry and feel like I was in mourning. Instead I felt as if I was on holiday! The money was sorted out and I just relaxed! I've never been bored. I am not glossing over it at all. I actually wished I'd dome it sooner when I was a bit more able bodied but never mind.

You must try to think of your Colleagues who are covering your class and your pupils who are missing you. Sorry to say the obvious. However, I don't think that 5 mornings in 3 terms is much to worry about in that respect. I think I might have clocked that up before I became unwell! One year there was a breast lump, about three morning INSETs at the Teaching Centre because I was SENCO, something else .... probably me being sick! Anyway you can miss 5 mornings in a year is what I am saying. I

With the expectation of improvement after this little bout, then all this will become unnecessary!

(Would you believe it - my phone is ringing now!!! Blast)

Good luck! Please be straight forward and don't play tricks, just ask what you want to know! Wishing you a very happy future and that the MS gives you an easy time!

If the employee is likely to be classed as disabled under the Equalities Act (and this is completely different from the criteria for disability used for PIP or blue badges btw) then you may well need to handle it very carefully as allowances for such appointments are often covered.

YesQueen. First really sorry to hear you need to have hospital Appts at all.
Secondly, you'll see in my rather long 2nd reply, I said the OP is fully entitled to what she asks, indeed I thought she wasn't asking much at all!

Just as I think your need for a full day (which was my need at one time) every twelve weeks is perfectly reasonable imho.

When I replied at first I diid say I didn't have time to read all the thread at that point and said ignore it if it's irrelevant. I was at that time under the impression that a rather entitled employee was taking at least one day off a week and not giving much notice to boot. When I was able to catch up (by dint of my plans crashing for tonight) I found that the OP is extremely reasonable and I think worrying a bit too much.

Hope this makes sense,

Does she have children? She might not be able to attend appointments in the afternoon is she has to pick them up. I work part time and it's almost impossible to choose appointments after work. Specially hospital appointments seem to always be before 12 for whatever reason.

I have a long term health condition and also currently a shorter term one too, awaiting an op for it.

I have medical appointments for the ok g term one every three months plus also additional ones too. For the 3 monthly ones I have to have a morning appointment - hospital only does it in a morning in a Tuesday or Wednesday. I do try to arrange them for the first appointment of the day so the impact on work is less but it's not always possible.

For the shorter term issue I have no say as to time and day. I have to take what it offered or I have a long wait again and that has an impact on my health, which will impact my work.