To be embarrassed to be British?

[ReasonablyIntelligent]

I've just seen on the news that the 29 Brexit Party MEPs all turned their backs (quite literally) during the European anthem in yesterday's opening session to the European Parliament.

Regardless of Pro-Brexit / Anti-Brexit debates, this is deeply deeply inappropriate, insanely undiplomatic and will have done nothing other than make the UK look ridiculous, childish and plain rude.

I'm ashamed to be represented by these people and the way things are going, ashamed to be a part of a country that is behaving like this.
Everyone else in Europe must think we are dirt.

I am also ashamed to be British.

The further problem with free movement of workers is the Posting of Workers Directive (the directly effective EU legislation that permits an employee who is sent by his employer to carry out a service in another EU member state on a temporary basis to be paid at the pay rates and employed on the terms and conditions in his home member state, not that of the new state).

Quite why such a rule was ever allowed to exist in such flagrant breach of all of the quality guarantees against discrimination that the EU is supposed to be about is a mystery (some cynics may say that it was to enable Germany to employ cheap Polish labour on temporary contracts which were constantly renewed). But basically this was your typical Eastern European fruit pickers shipped over and employed on a pittance.

Anyway, exist it did, for years, until it was revised last year. However that was after the Brexit referendum and it is entirely likely that the Posting of Workers Directive did lead to a gut feeling amongst many Brits of cheap labour undercutting local prices.

Now I have yet to see mention of the Posting of Workers Directive from any British politician or supposed expert, but it is talked about in Europe all the time. Is there really no knowledge of it and its effects, no discussion of the harm it caused and the abuses that led to its partial abolition? Does no-one educate themselves properly on the topic in British politics or journalism at all?

Zaziethecat The back turning was disgusting. Widdecombe’s remarks were disgusting. They are the spiritual heirs of Oswald Mosley.

More like a bunch of semi-educated oafs. I'm neither for nor against Brexit, but I am against having too many stupid people in positions of power.

They just demonstrated that the UK is represented in the European Parliament by 34 MEPs plus 29 arses.

that construction workers wages have declined since the influx of EU migrants. It’s demonstrably true
You're right in part, the wages did go down lots but that was also as the recession hit in 2008, around the same time we were busting with EE looking for work.
I can assure you in Ireland at least the tradesman wage has increased again.
TBF they are so in demand even the Eastern Europeans are charging pro rates and so they should.
You won't get a cheap tradesman from any country at the moment in Ireland.

@Allhailthesun They were turning their backs against the music which is the EU “ national” anthem. The EU is supposed to be a co operative of states not a state in its own right
It’s not a ‘national’ anthem. It’s an anthem. You don’t have to be a state to have one. For example, the Olympics do, and you would loom a twat turning your back on that one too.
Definition: anthem /ˈanθəm/ noun

1. a rousing or uplifting song identified with a particular group, body, or cause.

"the song became the anthem for hippy activists" 2.a musical setting of a religious text to be sung by a choir during a church service, especially in Anglican or Protestant Churches.

No mention of nations or states.

People in the the trade have really suffered. I know people who refuse to work with any of the contractors on behalf of councils or housing trusts, because they hire EU migrants at a price they were earning decades ago. People are quite justifiably angry when they experience this

Is this another factor having a knock on effect on housing associations doing repairs in a reasonable time frame?

Its also worrying as it adds another layer to the risk factor of HA tenants possibly having unqualified tradesman in their homes. There is a lot of it going on already anyway no matter the nationality of the trades person concerned. Ive just had correspondence tonight with a tenant worried about who she is going to have to let in her home

Remember tenants have no choice who their landlord/HA chooses.

Ive just had correspondence tonight with a tenant worried about who she is going to have to let in her home
Would you give over, people are people.
People in the the trade have really suffered. I know people who refuse to work with any of the contractors on behalf of councils or housing trusts, because they hire EU migrants at a price they were earning decades ago
I see where the government gets the bite your nose off to spite your face attitude.
My Dsis renovates properties, the cost of jobs haven't went down, the standard has went up, EE tradesman and carpenters are perfectionists IME.
If the country is failing with pay standards it is the government creating the problem.
Trade jobs are booming in Ireland 1000s of social houses and private houses businesses are being built.
We have a shortage in tradesman at the moment.
Any tradesmen should come over for work.
Initially there was a drop in wages but it coincided with the recession.
Everyone was price dropping.

I am ashamed. Feel like I have to apologise for being British when on holiday. I wish European s knew these goons dont speak for the majority just a lunatic fringe who have gotthe ruling party by the balls.
I thought bollocks to Brexit was an excellent message. More of that!

The information about the posting of workers directive upthread is not correct.

All migrant workers working lawfully the uk are entitled to all the same statutory rights - national minimum wage, holidays, holiday pay, working time, pregnancy protection, health and safety, agency workers regs etc as a British worker. There is no difference.

The issue is more that there is a greater willingness to under-house (many workers in one house, no children etc) and to accept lower pay and worse working conditions.

This has nothing to do with the posted workers directive.

This directive is significant in countries with national/sector pay bargaining like Germany. Less so to the UK.

The Posted Workers Directive allows workers to be posted in another member state at below the legally enforceable national ‘going rate’ for the job that is fixed by sector-wide collective agreements that are common in other member states. Germany, for example, had no national minimum wage until 2015. Instead wages were set through collective agreement sector-by-sector. Obviously it’s v upsetting for German workers that eg Polish workers are allowed to undercut the pay rates set in their national collective agreement.

In the UK, there are not many national or sectoral collective agreements left. Most people have their pay decided by their employer. And even the collective pay agreements that still exist are not legally enforceable, as they are on the continent, so the posted workers directive is basically irrelevant in the uk.

A lot of tradesman are sub contractors, which means no sick pay, no holiday.
You don’t go to work, you don’t get paid.

It’s always been that way, unless you’re working through an agency.

How can people have such strong opinions on something they have so little understanding of?

My Dsis renovates properties, the cost of jobs haven't went down, the standard has went up, EE tradesman and carpenters are perfectionists IME
My DP is a plasterer, he tends to work as a sub contractor.
This might be true in Ireland where you are, but not here in E London
Rates per metre sq have most definitely fallen, and they have NOT recovered.
Nothing to do with being ‘perfectionists’. How ignorant.
You seem adamant that we’re lying, why would we?

You seem adamant that we’re lying, why would we?
I don't think you are lying at all. It did happen here too, but it has stopped.
Tbf tradesmen are over paid here, I had two small walls, 4 foot wide plastered it cost me 340 Euro, he done it in 4 to 5 hours. He did a perfect job and he was Irish, I got 4 prices some from EE contractors he was the cheapest by a tenner.
There should be a standard priced introduced, I mean in my experience EE tradesmen charge very similar to Irish tradesmen.

Actually more like 3 hours work.

I had two small walls, 4 foot wide plastered it cost me 340 Euro, he done it in 4 to 5 hours
Not all tradesmen do private jobs though, a lot are subcontractors working on building sites. Most tradesmen trend to do one or the other, of course there are some that do both.

There should be a standard priced introduced
For what? An hourly rate? A day rate? Or a metre sq rate?
Who sets this standard price?

For what? An hourly rate? A day rate? Or a metre sq rate?
Yes all those things, there is a tradesman wage set here when employed by a company unions see it is adhered too.
Most tradesman who work in the private sector have a similar square mtr price.
If you request 5 quotes they are usually pretty similar.
Call out charges, hourly rates for electricians are all similar.

I'm never ashamed by another persons behaviour. It's not me doing it

As I said, my DP works as a sub contractor and has done for many years. He works on building sites, he doesn’t do work at peoples houses. So I don’t see how you mentioning what you paid for a builder at your own place in Ireland is relevant to what I’m talking about.
DP works in England, not in Ireland, and we’re talking about the reasons people in the UK voted for Brexit. In E London, where he had always lived and worked, the rate has been undercut as a direct result of EE migrant workers.
Unless you’re point is that we move to Ireland for his pay to increase, by doing private jobs instead of being a sub contractor, I really don’t see the relevance?

I just checked my messenger, because I remember my cousin had sent a meme on a group chat, complaining about people complaining about his prices. He is an electrician. I think people just don’t appreciate that you need to be skilled to be able to do this kind of work, people want skilled workers to work for them, but only want to pay them labourers wages.

we’re talking about the reasons people in the UK voted for Brexit. In E London, where he had always lived and worked, the rate has been undercut as a direct result of EE migrant workers
My point is blame the government for not setting a standard for skilled tradesmen, not the workers.

Ive just had correspondence tonight with a tenant worried about who she is going to have to let in her home
Would you give over, people are people.

Jesus why are you so determined to disbelieve what people with experience are telling you?

I live in a London Borough. There have been complaints to the councils about tradespeople coming into peoples homes who do not speak English. Imagine how intimidating it is to have 3 or more men come to your house to fix the kitchen and they all speak in their own language. The councils employ contractors who in turn employ lots of Eastern europeans who won't speak English unless you confront them. I had the experience, and it was intimidating. Imagine an old lady?

Further more there aren't close checks, the contractors put one person in charge, 3 men were supposed to turn up but now there are 5. You don't recognise them but they're doing the job so you shut up about it.

My mother is in a HA property. She had a problem with the window. Guy turns up. Climbs up to the roof window. Says he has to pop out to make a phonecall and doesn't return. Leaves ladder behind. My mother phoned the HA to complain. They contacted the sub-contractors. They couldn't get the guys name. Contractors don't know who he is or where to contact him.

My mum kept the ladder.

Who is blaming workers?
We’re saying that prices have diminished as a direct result of a massive influx of cheap EU labour.
Thats nothing to do with the government, it’s to do with free movement laws that we must abide by.
The government can’t force companies not to use EU labour.
What do you think the government should do/should have done?
Because your solution seems to stem on the fact they’re being paid too much and you want it to be standardised 🤷‍♀️

I agree with EmeraldShamrock that things are different in Ireland. Tradesmen really took advantage years ago, charged way over the odds - British people would never have paid the prices that we had to accept, because tradesmen had it all sewn up. Then an influx of Eastern Europeans, who were actually better, and charged less. But now, twenty years on, they've all upped their prices to match the Irish tradesmen, it hasn't gone the other way round. 😡

Thats nothing to do with the government

It is to do with the government

Other countries set limits...we didnt

We may well still have had similar problems but not the extent that there is now