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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be very uncomfortable with 17 year old Billie Eilish's Bad Guy video?

234 replies

AbsentmindedWoman · 03/07/2019 15:31

Am I being an old gimmer?

It makes me deeply uncomfortable because she's not legally an adult, and I'm pretty certain the production team around her are all adults, possibly with the exception of an intern or two. Most of the men you can see in the video are.

It feels very exploitative. I don't know much about this singer, but a quick google shows she is open about mental health issues, so possibly quite vulnerable in a way, and then she's singing about bruises on her knees and rough sex, seducing dads (who are obviously going to be adult men!) and she's only 17 years old.

I'll be honest, I would have thought in 2019 this wouldn't be legal until the singer is 18 - or at least frowned upon by the industry as not acceptable? Not that it is magically better when someone turns 18 but the whole attitude seems very dated?

OP posts:
Zaeem5 · 03/07/2019 18:12

“I am in my early 40s and it is certainly no surprise to me that 17 year old girls are having sex; with (much) older men and sometimes with other people's dads. It is not uncommon“

So you’ll be happy for your daughter to date a man your age will you, dadishere?

Sorry to dispel your fantasy, but I can see any teens I know looking at dads. Give me a break.

Anarchyshake · 03/07/2019 18:15

Thought she was 19.

My nearly 12 year old has introduced her to me and I'm quite impressed with her music, and she comes across as quirky and odd like we do.

If any of you want to try something similarish, but by an older artist, go google She Makes War. I first saw her in early 2012 and she plays all her own instruments, using a live recording device to keep the music going for each song.

I could only wish to have had a close relationship and the confidence to have put together what Billie Eilish has with her brother

ReanimatedSGB · 03/07/2019 18:23

I've seen about three generations of dumbfucks whining about different types of music and blaming it for young people's troubles. It's always been bullshit and this is no different.

MyLovelyLadyFlumps · 03/07/2019 18:43

it is certainly no surprise to me that 17 year old girls are having sex; with (much) older men and sometimes with other people's dads. It is not uncommon.

Really? How many other posters know/knew teenagers having sex with other people’s dads? What??

Original poster
AbsentmindedWoman · 03/07/2019 18:47

I'm not blaming music for young people's troubles. That's nonsense.

I think music like this reflects cultural shifts of the time, and I hoped/ wished that the days of underage girls being fair game for older men were over. At seventeen you might think you know it all, that you can take the choking and slaps to the face and it just makes you worldly - and happily very much in line with current porn trends.

I just don't think it's a good idea to encourage teenagers who are new to sex and relationships, and new to asserting boundaries and negotiating their likes and dislikes, into the type of BDSM-style activities (not really BDSM at all, as there's no emphasis on informed consent) that are so prevalent in porn. I think a fair amount of porn is actively harmful - not including ethical feminist porn.

Misogyny and homophobia are both surging to the forefront again, in all areas of life, after it looked like things were beginning to go in the right direction. For a while. So yes, I'm a bit dejected that in 2019 this music is still being pushed as edgy and subversive girl power.

OP posts:
dadshere · 03/07/2019 18:47

I remember being a teenager. Many of my friends dated much older men, and yes many of these men had children. Not sure if some of the posters on here are drowning in naivety or hypocrisy.

maddiemookins16mum · 03/07/2019 18:47

No way was I on my knees getting bruised at 17. I had more respect for myself.

Notmyrealname855 · 03/07/2019 18:53

I do have a problem with the lyrics/ video but from very particular experience...

In my area lots of us were exploited by older men, when we were 15-18 sort of age. One of the smarter ways to exploit was making us feel like we were in control, had power over them - some of these men were 40+, some in their 20s.

Just a classic sign of exploitation for me. Who here really thinks it’s a good thing for a 17 yr old to be “in a relationship” with an older man.

You don’t have control over these men - you don’t even have parity with them. You’re used and they move on.

Found it weird she sang about it

Original poster
AbsentmindedWoman · 03/07/2019 18:57

I remember being a teenager. Many of my friends dated much older men, and yes many of these men had children

Do you honestly see nothing wrong with this at all, if these people were under 18?

If you ever found yourself single now as an established adult long out of your teens, would you actually consider having a bit of fun with a 17 year old?

OP posts:
dadshere · 03/07/2019 19:01

@AbsentmindedWoman - No, I find it quite disgusting, but that is for me personally. Just because I don't like it, I am not going to judge someone else for their (legal) desires. I have also been a teacher for over 20 years, and nothing is less sexually attractive than a teenager. Literally nothing.

StoorieHoose · 03/07/2019 19:02

JammieJones

I watched her at Glasto, on the big screen, no makeup, not hiding her acne, hair unbrushed, huge baggy clothes, she absolutely fucking smashed it!

Maybe have a listen to xanny (anti drugs) and then come back and judge her

^^THIS

Eaudear · 03/07/2019 19:03

In my area lots of us were exploited by older men, when we were 15-18 sort of age. One of the smarter ways to exploit was making us feel like we were in control, had power over them - some of these men were 40+, some in their 20s.

Exactly. Its textbook.

Good Post by AbsentmindedWoman as well.

I'm not saying this song is absolutely outrageous or anything tbh, but why does violence have to feature?

Could we imagine a male artist singing a song about being given a bloody nose and bruised knees from his lover?

Eaudear · 03/07/2019 19:05

I am not going to judge someone else for their (legal) desires.

I would judge a bloke in his forties who isn't bothered that his sexual partner isn't even an actual adult tbh.

BlueCornsihPixie · 03/07/2019 19:09

For me the song makes me uncomfortable because it's a young girl singing about how she's in control and she fucks over all the bad guys, but you sort of know in reality that older men in that kind of relationship always have the power.

It has lyrics like even if you know that you don't own me, I'll let you play the role, I'll be your animal.

It comes across like every naive teenage girl involved in an exploitative relationship saying they totally are in control, because often they do even if they don't. But then you look outside the box and there's a young girl being 'controlled' and given a bloody nose through sex.

puppy23 · 03/07/2019 19:22

“Only eat an apple every three days or something like that, so they can be “frail” and “weak”. Then light-headed and delighted they have no strength left, they go looking for their online dom, requesting to be choked or face slapped etc."

Some really innaccurate, offensive and disgusting stereotyping of poor girls suffering with eating disorders there.

Divebar · 03/07/2019 19:30

I read the interview in the Times and thought she came across well.... quite obviously aware of her message and in control of her own career. She doesn’t like being categorised and put in boxes hence the super long nails , baggy clothes etc. I only saw Bad Guy video the other day and didn’t see a hint of exploitation - she’s literally saying - stop worrying about me I am the fucking bad guy - the one you need to watch out for. - the fact that so many people here are apparently shocked and horrified by it makes me like it more quite frankly

Halloumimuffin · 03/07/2019 19:32

I find it bizarre that this conversation is happening over clean living, baggy trousered, woke gen z Billie Eilish. When I was a kid the teen pop sensation was 17 year old Britney spears, presented as virgin jailbait singing songs about being subservient to men in her underwear. Watching Billie feels like serious progress compared to those days 20 years ago.

Diamondeye · 03/07/2019 19:40

Oh no I love Billie but now MN are discussing her ... blurgh

Original poster
AbsentmindedWoman · 03/07/2019 19:48

When I was a kid the teen pop sensation was 17 year old Britney spears, presented as virgin jailbait singing songs about being subservient to men in her underwear. Watching Billie feels like serious progress compared to those days 20 years ago

They really don't feel that different to me. Same message, different window dressing and props. Billie might not be singing she's a Slave 4 U but she'll still play the role because she likes it like that. And you can treat her like an animal, it's cool.

I reiterate - I agree she's talented, that's not the issue here. As Britney Spears is a talented performer/ dancer.

OP posts:
Eaudear · 03/07/2019 19:59

In a way its worse though because the way Britney was presented was quite transparent really.

Whereas Billie Eilish appears to be being presented as this empowered 'tough girl', who 'exploits' older men... Whilst getting a bloody nose and bruised knees. It kind of just reminds me of other things I am seeing at the moment about violence in sexual relationships being oh so empowering and consensual. Even though it's always the woman who is on the receiving end of the violence funnily enough.

So excuse me if reading those lyrics makes me a repressed pearl clutching weirdo.

Bumpitybumper · 03/07/2019 20:00

@BlueCornsihPixie
I agree completely with everything you've written.

My problem with this song is that it crosses into Lolita territory by making it seem that a very young woman in a sexual relationship with a much older man that inflicts violence on her is somehow the predator and the "bad guy". At best it's quite disingenuous as it's highly likely that the real power dynamics in the relationship aren't quite as she depicts them and that these men are hardly being exploited by her and is probably the other way around. At worst, it is normalising violent sex and potentially reinforcing porn themes that imply that women love a bit violence and they aren't victims because it's what they want.

I remember being this age and feeling quite intoxicated by the apparent power I suddenly seemed to have over men. I felt like I could stay in control and manage things on my terms. I didn't understand the effect that age and experience has on people and how actually these things fed much more into the power dynamic than I really understood.

Eaudear · 03/07/2019 20:01

Oh no I love Billie but now MN are discussing her ... blurgh

Oh yeah, I forgot that women and their opinions become like, totally irrelevant, once they have kids.

Blurgh.

porkpiie · 03/07/2019 20:02

I think she's got some bangers tbh

Zaeem5 · 03/07/2019 20:03

Her music has a very depressive quality, I think. I find it insidious and draining. I hadn’t watched any of the videos before today, but now that I have I feel even more depressed and I can see now why DH reacted the way he did and told DD not to watch it anymore.

avalanching · 03/07/2019 20:06

Has there been a thread analysing Justin Bieber's pre 18 lyrics?