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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

999 replies

Cassort · 02/07/2019 00:53

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
LizzieSiddal · 02/07/2019 07:42

If this child is chosen to compete, one girl will not be chosen and all her hard work and talent will be wasted. So we have two children and one of them will miss out.

Honestly use your brain and logic and stop trying to fuck over children of the female variety.

SkintAsASkintThing · 02/07/2019 07:42

Georgia Stanway (( the England football player )) got to where she did because a local boys team let her join early. When she hit 12 / 13 she had to leave and find a mixed team.

I don't see an issue in allowing children to have mixed groups, it's all a muchness at that age. Especially something like figure skating or whatever it is. If the kid wants to wear a frock then fine..........I do think there's major issues in allowing kids to make body altering decisions. I foresee a lot of Frankenstein doctors being sued in years to come.

Fibbke · 02/07/2019 07:44

All the parents of daughters who are very pro trans people in sports, i hope you insist that your dd runs or swims in the boys races. This will show how liberal and understanding you are and will signal to others how you and your dds are allies. If you don't, if you are happy for your dd to only compete against other females then don't you think you are being old fashioned and a bit...transphobic?

Ascreed · 02/07/2019 07:44

I know I can't speak for everyone but it fills me with horror what could have happened.
If I'd been a child now.

I often think this too, especially with the disproportionate amount of autistic people being referred (as I'm autistic) I then as a child and now as an adult wear completely mens clothing, down to boxers. Typically liked hobbies seen as for boys, luckily I too was just seen as a tomboy and I'm a happy adult female confident that I just like fashion/things outside the norm. If I was young now though I worry I'd of been pushed into/swept along in the belief that I must be a boy.

Daaps · 02/07/2019 07:45

I think that for one child to have their life made miserable because they can't be who they want to be, is too high of a price to pay for one other child to win a race

This is the incel argument, isn’t it? If a man is miserable it’s a woman’s fault. If only the women would centre the men in everything they do the men wouldn’t be miserable, and then they wouldn’t be forced into being rapists and school shooters. Lose the race. Suck the dick. Make them happy otherwise it’s your fault.

It’s not the job or responsibility of women and girls to prostrate themselves so men and boys can be ‘who they want to be’.

BogglesGoggles · 02/07/2019 07:46

They probably shouldn’t have segregated categories for prepubescent children tbh. Seems a bit pointless.

MrsJamin · 02/07/2019 07:46

@AtmosClock We are being kind and empathetic, to those women who want to compete fairly in sport and have a chance of winning, and for children who believe they are the opposite sex, it's kinder to speak about the truth, that you can't change sex and you should accept the body you have, and wear what the hell you want! Leading a child into an asexual adulthood with untold damage due to hormones is the opposite of kind.

LizzieSiddal · 02/07/2019 07:46

Very good point Fibbke

I have two Dds and boys/ men /trans women/girls and fuck right off trying compete with them.

Fibbke · 02/07/2019 07:47

Georgia Stanway (( the England football player )) got to where she did because a local boys team let her join early. When she hit 12 / 13 she had to leave and find a mixed team a mixed team? Do you mean a girls team?

Girls can play against boys until 18 now under FA rules and I'm dreading it tbh.

Witchend · 02/07/2019 07:48

I've decided I identify as 6yo and am now going to win all the year 1 races at sports' day today.
That's just as fair.

Smellbowpenisbeaker · 02/07/2019 07:48

To take the bus analogy further...

Let’s imagine that in 2019 Rosa Parks is sitting on the bus.

Now because it’s 2019, she has protected rights and no white person can make her move. I’m fact no fucker can make her move.

On gets an evidently white man. But, feeling jaded by the violence and toxicity historically associated with his skin colour, he decides he’s black.

So, being a black person, he feels comfortable asking Rosa to shift up a bit to share he seat, because he’s not white and we’re all in it together and the other seats are all occupied.

Rosa knows full well this guy is white. But there are signs on the bus about respecting all people’s identity at the expense of biology.

Everyone else stares at Rosa until she shuffles the fuck up.

derxa · 02/07/2019 07:50

This child also deserves better than to be surrounded by adults who are lying through their teeth when they say a boy can become a girl.
Yes.

Tallgreenbottle · 02/07/2019 07:50

@Cassort I'd be more concerned with the damage done to children who were 'transed', rather than encouraged to be happy in their own skin. The issue is with 'gender norms' suddenly being a huge thing, when there is no actual norm for any gender. Only idealised perceptions.

returnofthecat · 02/07/2019 07:50

I guess the only way for all participants to have a fair shot in any competitive sport would be to either introduce two extra categories (I don't think lumping all transgender people into the same category would be fair either, M to F would still have different physical advantages than F to M) or to allow transgender people to compete in the category of their choice with some kind of adjustment. That could be an adjustment that puts them at an advantage (e.g. F to M competing in a male category) or penalises them (e.g. M to F competing in a female category).

However, I'm not sure anyone really wants scores being messed with. I mean, no one makes reasonable adjustments at the Olympics, instead we have the Paralympics. I suspect it's because psychologically, the winners want to feel confident they definitely won outright, not because their scores were tampered with. People I guess prefer to compete with people with the same advantages and/or challenges as them.

So... maybe two extra categories makes most sense. Male, female and then two transgender categories. And with some kind of basic entry requirements for all four categories to stop anyone from taking the piss and entering into one of the new transgender categories for a laugh, on the basis that they don't think there are enough serious players in those categories for that particular sport.

Might take a while until we get enough people competing in those two new categories for them to become something worth watching, but in 10 years' time, the uptake could be high enough for all four categories to warrant equal attention and acclaim from the general public.

With children... I'm not sure what the answer is. Thinking back to before puberty hit, I think there were still clear differences between how the boys and girls did in sport. I suspect you'd still have to have the extra transgender categories. It might make it harder for transgender children to have enough sporting competition though because many transgender people (in today's world anyway) will only identify as such when they're on the cusp of adulthood.

The earlier comments about Rosa Parks are ridiculous, because she was supposed to sit in a particular spot because of the colour of her skin, and segregating people based on how they look makes zero sense. With sport, we're not talking about people look, we're talking about the bits that you can't see - their physiology. It's all about hormones and muscles and making sure people competing against people are doing so on an equal basis.

There are some nasty issues when it comes to discriminating against people on the basis of their race or gender, but they are not the same issues and to treat them as such would be to create an injustice.

OrchidInTheSun · 02/07/2019 07:51

Skint but this boy isn't pushing for mixed sex competitions (and I wouldn't have a problem with that). He wants the female category to be expanded to include him.

And to whoever asked why the BBC keeps running these stories on the thread in FWR, it's because some people like the OP will feel all sympathy for the poor child who is at risk of a miserable life and it won't hurt girls to move up a little bitty bit to make him a bit happier would it?

Would be nice if the BBC would keep to it's stated aims to be objective and fair and show a video of Selina Soule too

www.dailysignal.com/2019/05/06/8th-place-high-school-girls-speak-out-on-getting-beat-by-biological-boys/

Munhu · 02/07/2019 07:52

And it will never be men and boys losing out and suffering if transgender people are allowed to pick their own categories. Men also won't be at risk if biologically female transgender men end up in men's prisons. That alone makes it a feminist issue for me and I don't understand why some women are in such a rush to throw their and other women's rights away in a desperate attempt to appear progressive and right on.

mummmy2017 · 02/07/2019 07:54

Can we look at a sport that does understand the human body.

Boxing.

Look at how many different weights there are to protect people due to body size, strength

WinterWife · 02/07/2019 07:55

I think that for one child to have their life made miserable because they can't be who they want to be, is too high of a price to pay for one other child to win a race.

Nobody is saying they can't be who they want to be. We're saying they can't be put in a category in sport that will give them an unfair advantage to the others. They can dress in skirts, make up and have their hair done but compete with the same sex group as they were born.

Fresta · 02/07/2019 07:55

No, YABU- she is is he! You can't choose your sex! Men shouldn't masquerade as women and it be acceptable! We need to stop this shit! Dress as you like, wear whatever make-up you like, yes! But actually expect people to accept that you are the same as an actual woman- no!

ChattyLion · 02/07/2019 07:56

If your DD wears a chest compressing binder (to look flat-chested after puberty) regularly it will be very hard for her to take part in ANY physical exertion at all- let alone a sporting competition. Because of her rib cage being heavily restricted causing her breathing difficulties and fainting. Risk of broken ribs and damage to skin and sweat rashes. Quick summary here:

www.transgendertrend.com/breast-binders-in-uk-schools/

This is Victorian stuff. Do we need ‘fainting couches’ to become a thing in UK schools in 2019? Confused

MidniteScribbler · 02/07/2019 07:56

If one child comes second in a race, it's not the end of the world.

We aren't talking about one child being disappointed at not winning on sports day.

We're talking about women's sport being devalued. No one is interested in watching biological males saunter down a track and take 1st, 2nd or 3rd whilst the women trail behind. People aren't going to watch soccer matches where the 6ft 6 biological male shoves everyone out of his way. It's going to affect sponsorship, which means less air time and less sponsors money.

We're talking about college scholarships, which are the ONLY way for some American's to get to college. A friend of mine grew up in an area where she was expected to be either pregnant or dead by 16. It was only her skill on the sporting field and the support of teachers that got her a scholarship (restricted to female African American students that were skilled in that sport) to college. She now has a PhD and lectures at tertiary level. If boys had been able to apply for that sport, her future would have looked very different.

No one cares if there is a third category. Knock yourself out. But men need to fuck off out of women's spaces and campaign for their own category...just like women have already had to do. We've already had our fight for rights, so stop tagging onto our hard work and blaze your own trail.

MsTSwift · 02/07/2019 07:56

The obvious and easy answer to all this is to widen the bandwidth for men so they can remain Male whilst wearing what the hell they want. It’s so narrow for men dh masculine but great at clothes and fashion and genuinely enjoys company of women as friends. He has got shit for this in the past from the lad types. These poor lads trying to escape these confines go to drastic measure of rejecting being Male entirely.

pachyderm · 02/07/2019 07:57

Really sick of the "it's all soooo saaaad" head tilting sympathy for males who want to ruin women's sports, privacy, dignity, and safety. What about women and girls who are already massively disadvantaged because of their sex and societal conditioning? Don't you give a fuck about them?Angry

SkintAsASkintThing · 02/07/2019 07:57

Orchid Georgia joined a boys team. She was accepted because she was so good........arguably taking a boys place in the process. She had to leave when she got older and find a girls team in another part of the country.

Mixed sports where children are concerned is a pretty level playing field. The whole trans thing is a completely separate issue.

mumsiedarlingrevolta · 02/07/2019 07:58

No for now

No for in 20 years time