AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

One thing that is obvious is that they have zero idea of the sheer scale of the problem. The dozens and dozens of men identifying as women who are competing against women. Is that relevant when we are talking about prepubescent children, not men and women.

Prepubescent children do compete together.
The issue is what happens post puberty when anyone can self ID as whatever sex they want.
Consequences are important.

thedevondumpling

As I said, the OP didn't appear to understand the scale of the problem, because of comments like this:

As for sports - this really is a non-issue as it applies to possibly 0.0001% of the population, but for that tiny percentage, would it be THAT FUCKING AWFUL to allow them to 'be' women in a competition?

In terms of prepubescent children competing in the other sex's category? It depends whether or not you subscribe to the ideology. I don't. I profoundly disagree with it.

Mixed sex categories, where appropriate, of course.

Campaigns like This Girl Can, and the one that shows girls sweating, are deliberate attempts to encourage more women and girls in sport. As a category. Because they are discouraged. As a category.

Pretending there is no difference in the categories makes you oblivious to sexism.

Prepubescent children do compete together. Then what is the issue with this child? Why are people going on about men playing women in rugby or MMA? Arguments for another thread surely.

thedevondumpling

If the events are mixed sex, then it's fine. If they are for the other sex, then it's not.

Because it's perpetuating the idea that being a girl (in this case) is something that relies on the way you look, speak, act, or think.

Ask yourself what are those things? What is said out loud, or worn, or thought that makes males say they are female?

What are they doing to switch categories?

It has to be sexist stereotypes. The reason? Being female isn't a feeling.

It's a description. Of reproductive potential.

Just ask yourself the question. What attributes must this boy display in order for him to be considered a girl? And why is he then considered a girl?

thedevondumpling because this child wants to compete as a girl, against the girls only.

thedevondumpling
The rules are that women can only compete in the skating competition if they have a female name on their birth certificate / national ID. They can’t just change the rule for that one child. So it opens up the risk of people who have been through male puberty seeking to compete in female competitions.

Secondly, Maria wishes to continue competing. She is already 11 so is close to puberty as are the other competitors.

For me, it's not even the thin edge of the wedge. Even if it were possible to then halt it as the boy hit puberty.

It's telling all those girls that a description of their sex is what? Pierced ears? A tutu? Spangles? Sparkles?

What?

What does it tell the girls? And what does it tell all the other boys that girls are?

DevonDumpling Ok, let's assume this cute little boy gets to complete with the girls now, while he's doe-eyed and cute and small.

What happens when he grows up and puberty marches in?

Do we suddenly turn round and tell him he is now magically no longer a girl even though we've gone along with it for the past few years? Do we tell him we were just indulging his fantasy but we knew all along? And what do we tell the girls the whole time?

What? What solution to this do you propose if it's ok now?
Something beyond "come on women, be nice", that is.

But sport is split by sex for a specific reason.

Genuinely, what would be the point of even competing at all if you knew that one of your competitors had a biological advantage over you? What would be the point in watching competitive sports if we knew that the playing field was not level?

It's the whole point of the split, so that the chances are equal for those taking part. It's nothing to do with hurting anyone's feelings or being transphobic. There is a very real and scientific reason why it's done the way it is.

Her parents should be lobbying for her to compete in the boy's category but with whatever clothing she feels more comfortable in, not taking advantage over the girls competition. It's essentially cheating isn't it?

You say you'd rather a girl come second than hurt this child's feelings by not allowing them to compete in the women's category, but that is so incredibly one sided. Why should a young girl who has trained incredibly hard have her ambitions dashed? It's so very unfair to think that way.

I feel for the child, I really do but scuppering the opportunities of other girls is not the answer here.

Stephanie Davies Arai of Transgendertrend has recounted an experience at a school.

A boy transitioned to become a girl. He was feted and celebrated and came back to school with his hair beautifully done, in very feminine clothes, and strappy sandals.

The girls, normal girls, gender non conforming girls, looked at him and thought if that's what a girl actually is, what the hell am I?

It's not surprising that the vast majority of kids showing up at gender clinics are girls. Thinking they must be boys.

(And of course, girls can wear pink, glitter, sparkles. It just doesn't define their sex).

Then what is the issue with this child?

This is what I think is the main issue with this child, thedevondumpling. This is about a boy who thinks he's a girl. Why does he think he's a girl? Who has told him that wearing dresses makes him a girl? Does he think he can really change sex? Have adults been telling him that? Why?

What is the motivation behind adults who tell children that they can change sex? Why would anyone do that?

I suppose I'm going to be accused of 'misgendering' now. But we can't discuss this unless we speak the truth. People can't change sex. I am using language which is correct according to the sex of the child.

Do we suddenly turn round and tell him he is now magically no longer a girl even though we've gone along with it for the past few years? Do we tell him we were just indulging his fantasy but we knew all along? And what do we tell the girls the whole time?

According to people like Mermaids we stuff him full of puberty blockers and continue to lie to him and the girls that he can become a 'real girl'.

As has been said many times, we need to expand the bandwidth of what being male is, to encompass the whole spectrum rather than encourage narrow stereotypes.

"come on women, be nice", and that's what it so galling Buzz, why should women and girls have to be nice?

Oh go on, give up your first place win, your medal, your prize, your right to qualify for a future competition or scholarship because it's nice. What it actually means is that girls and women and their hopes, ambitions and desires are not worth anything against the hopes, ambitions and desires of boys and men. Boys and men and their feelings must be put first.

There are no prizes, medals, scholarships etc., awarded on the basis of being nice.

I think it’s a valid argument that being ‘kind’ now means being horribly cruel later if we’re talking of allowing prepubescent transgirls to compete with girls then making them stop competing or compete with boys when puberty kicks in and the biological advantages make the competition unfair. I think presentation rules should be changed so costume is less gendered for both girls and boys.

Oh darn it's back, having had time to think through my handicap idea and decided it was rubbish I wasn't that sorry to see it disappear!

Haha dreichuplands.

I don't think anyone would criticise you for trying to come up with a creative solution.

It's just that, in my experience, there isn't one. But I wouldn't knock you for trying!

There's not going to be a transgender female in every women's race. On the odd occasion where there is, is it really worth all this hatred?

Firstly, there's no hatred on my part. I'll make that clear from the off.

It doesn't matter how 'odd' the occasion. The woman who finishes 20th in an event has every right to feel unfairly displaced in the face of unfair competition. Her 19th place may not be important to you but I'd like to bet that it is to her.

Her 19th place may not be important to you but I'd like to bet that it is to her.

And it's not just one woman. It's every woman. Every single woman who has come in a place behind where she should be.

And it's every woman who is told that being a woman is a set of sexist stereotypes.

And, since there is absolutely no verifiable criteria whatsoever, to 'become' a woman, what's to stop every single unscrupulous government in the world doing it?

There's not going to be a transgender female in every women's race. On the odd occasion where there is, is it really worth all this hatred?

First off, fuck off with your ridiculous "hatred" dogwhistling.

Second, you think this won't become a problem?

For example, you think places Iran just "accidentally" ended up with a majority of male sexed people in their women's football team?
www.dailywire.com/news/29107/cheating-trans-heres-how-many-dudes-are-iranian-amanda-prestigiacomo

You think

Fundamentally this issue of a boy wanting to be seem and treated as a girl in girls sport is an issue for boys. Let’s keep centring the girls here. Let the boys expand the bandwidth of masculinity to enable this child to compete with them. That way, the girls are losing out and the rest of the world can stop arguing in the Internet.
But this is not good enough. It’s not good enough for TRAs. And why? Because women and girls are still second class citizens in this world and that mean our feelings/rights don’t matter.

And because the boys would probably rip the piss out of a boy such as this whereas the girls are too polite.

Children are given puberty blockers as young as 8. You can’t have “11 year olds are all pre pubescent” on one hand and “we must medicate this child at 8” on the other.

There's not going to be a transgender female in every women's race. On the odd occasion where there is, is it really worth all this hatred?

By the same token, there aren’t going to be that many men who have to compete in their own sex category when they want to compete in the woman’s category. On the odd occasion when they do, couldn’t we just say “no, this is the woman’s category and it’s for women only”. It’s not really worth all this hatred. After all, women don’t get to compete at all if they lose their spot to a man. Transwomen can still compete in their own category.