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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

999 replies

Cassort · 02/07/2019 00:53

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Biancadelrioisback · 02/07/2019 08:27

OP, you didn't post this thread to have a discussion or understand opinions. You started this to argue with people. You won't win by arguing.

TemporaryPermanent · 02/07/2019 08:30

The fight should surely be to make 'transitioning' a thing of the past. That no-one should feel constrained or distressed by their biological sex,.least if all an 11 year old. Given that nobody is born trans, it is clearly a cultural response to a cultural problem. Cultural problems can change. which is perhaps the only relevance if Rosa Parkes to this discussion.

Competing in a skating competition should be fun. it shouldn't be any issue for a male child to compete in the male category, in the same competition as his female friends. the cultural issue might be the dress code. it may also be that for under 11s, the competition should be completely open.

You really want an 11 year old boy to go through the reported horrors of transition, which is uniquely terrible apparently, rather than fix a sexist dress code? Why?

Becles · 02/07/2019 08:31

@Munhu

Men also won't be at risk if biologically female transgender men end up in men's prisons

Yep. Untransitioned, self ID 'women' are currently in female prisons and most moves appear to have been made without any risk assessment or consideration for women's legal rights under the Equality act.

Some have gone on to sexually assault women with their lady dick (loathe that phrase) and the argument is that as it's only a few it's a risk worth taking.

No mention that the majority of Male prisoners identifying as women have a history of sexual offences and violence. I wonder why they would want to be moved to a prison full of vulnerable women who can't leave?

TheInvestigator · 02/07/2019 08:32

Claudette Colvin was the first black woman to refuse to give up her seat on a bus. She was 15 when she was arrested. The civil rights movement kept her name fairly hushed up because they didn't want her as the face of the movement; she was poor, she swore and was badly spoken. She became pregnant soon after. She wasn't the representative they wanted. She also didn't plan it; she was just fed up and refused to move. Rosa Parks planned the stunt and worked with the civil rights movement so that it would be well publicised.
And Claudette is still alive. You should know who she is.

Anyway, not the point of the thread but everyone is giving credit to Rosa Parks and ignoring the actual first woman to do it.

SoupDragon · 02/07/2019 08:32

The fight should surely be to make 'transitioning' a thing of the past. That no-one should feel constrained or distressed by their biological sex

Absolutely.

poopypants · 02/07/2019 08:34

OP, you have to ask yourself why we have segregated sports. Why are there male only and female only sports. It is completely different to racial segregation as we all agree that segregating against racial groups is wrong but mpost people here even you appear to have no problem with segregating by gender/sex. So if you accept that there are genuine and appropriate reasons to segregate males and females for sporting competitions then you have to ask yourself why. Therein lies your answer. We separate males and females in sports to create a level playing field because science tells us that males and females have different physicalities and pitting a female say weight lifter againts males would be pointless. You have your answer right there. You would have to be argueing agaisnt all separate sports for your argument to hold any validity.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/07/2019 08:34

I'm just thinking that this child can probably be female in everything but sport.

No, a child can be as 'feminine' as they want but a child born a boy will never be female.

genetically male, while quintessentially female

Quintessential: 'being the most typicall examplee or most importantt partt of something'

Really?Hmm you think looking feminine is the most important part of being a female?

FamilyOfAliens · 02/07/2019 08:38

The OP lost me at this:

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul

Hebdenbridge · 02/07/2019 08:38

I consider leading a child to believe that they can change sex, and setting them on a path of harmful pharmaceutical dependency and unnecessary cosmetic surgeries; to be abusive. I consider it child abuse. And I consider you OP, to be in support of child abuse

Ghanagirl · 02/07/2019 08:38

@Cassort
You are being incredibly offensive to mention Rosa Parkes genuine struggle for inequality in the same post as a child whose parents have contributed to this situation.

BeansandRice · 02/07/2019 08:39

AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated girls and women in sport?

When ALL the Olympic medals are won by biological men, for example ...

(and sex-segregated spaces, and girls' and women's safety, privacy and dignity)?

And echo others: looking "like a girl" doesn't make you a girl. Basic biology.

BeansandRice · 02/07/2019 08:41

Why can't we just accept "feminine" men?

I'm shouting into the void, I know, but really ...

Smellbowpenisbeaker · 02/07/2019 08:41

Female in everything but sport? People are only female in biology. It’s about the human body. It’s impossible to be female if your bod is not a genetically female body.

You’re talking about gender. Gender is theoretical. It’s a structure of rigid stereotypes aimed to keep people in a certain place that better benefits systemic patriarchy. To adhere to a gender is not to change sex - the only gender-point highlighted by a feminine boy is that gender as related to biological sex is a crock of shit.

Ghanagirl · 02/07/2019 08:42

@TheInvestigator
I was aware of Claudette Colvin but Rosa Parkes deserves credit due to her act being deliberate and also because it brought about change.

OneOfOurOwn · 02/07/2019 08:42

You don't have to compete to enjoy sport. There's plenty of joy to be had rollerskating without any sort of competition. Learn tricks and hang with like minded kids at the skate park. Jam skate and make videos. Nobody has the right to be an elite athlete and your happiness should not depend on it.

Bezalelle · 02/07/2019 08:45

it is clearly a cultural response to a cultural problem

This, 100%.

EleanorOalike · 02/07/2019 08:46

YABVVVU It’s roller skating and I grew up as a figure skater who still skates in the adult category so I think I have a good insight into the physics and demands on the body.

Male skaters perform more rotations than most females because their bodies allow them to and most women’s bodies don’t, after puberty. The likes of Trusova who are able to perform quads are only able to do that because they have prepubescent type bodies and perhaps dangerously low body weights.

Skaters of this boys age regularly train from 5am until school starts and after school, weekends, throughout school holidays and at HUGE cost to their families and massive sacrifice to themselves and their siblings and parents. They often go without a social life, boyfriends/girlfriends as they get older, holidays and some are homeschooled and/or put university on hold for their skating career.

Biological males have, not a slight advantage, but a massive physical advantage as skaters due to their strength and testosterone levels which make them better athletes. It is 100% unfair to rob biological females of the equal and fair chance to win so that a biological male can compete in the wrong category. The damage and hurt feelings are equal.
You have no regard for the little biological females feelings but for the biological male with long hair wearing makeup and a dress you feel the rule book should be torn up? The message sent to the young biological females is that their hard work and training means nothing at all because a male can come in and take any victory for himself because he has a physical advantage that the females cannot possibly have.

Also, given the country’s cultural background there is a quite a large chance that this child is being encouraged to be a trans girl rather than an “effeminate” gay male because homosexuality is still not widely accepted.

You say the child “looks like a girl”. That’s because he is prepubescent, has a long feminine hairstyle and is wearing pretty clothes and makeup. The fact remains that the child is not a biological girl, the child has a penis and testes and is hormonally and chromosomally male, not female. If I chopped all my hair off and wore men’s clothes today that wouldn’t make me a man. This is something most of us learned as toddlers!

I have post and pre-op transgender friends and colleagues and accept them just as they are. THEY are not in support of children transitioning and certainly not of the use of hormone blockers. I am absolutely opposed to the transitioning of children because I care for children and do not think they have the capacity to make permanent, life changing decisions about their bodies when their brains and emotional intelligence haven’t had a chance to fully develop.

This child should be allowed to wear what they want and compete against children who are biologically the same as them. I’d fully support a trans girl and trans boy category.

Your allusion to Rosa Parkes was deeply offensive.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 02/07/2019 08:47

I was flipping through national geographic and something caught my eye about how females are better than males to be shot into outer space, and it got me thinking.

What if only women could survive space travel - on the basis of biology? Men would die/explode/turn into Alien. How many male borns (no matter how much the believed/wished themselves to be female) would don a spacesuit?

BeansandRice · 02/07/2019 08:47

I just don't know how I'd deal with a child of my own who was transgender, or how I'd have navigated life being transgender

And how would you feel if you had an elite sporting daughter (biological female) whose chances of getting anywhere in any sport which requires speed and strength disappear after puberty?

Because THIS IS HAPPENING NOW Look at school sports in the US - and sporting scholarships are an important way for girls to get to university.

But really, what does it matter. As long as "real" MEN don't have to accommodate feminine men, who might just challenge the norms of masculinity by which most men cling to some sense of themselves as superior, it really doesn't matter that we:

  • fundamentally force a change in the definition of what a woman is without women's consent
  • girls lose out on the opportunities afforded in sport, at both amateur & elite levels
  • girls and women have their privacy, dignity & safety compromised

Because men can't be expected to accommodate feminine men. Oh no, it might make them "feel sad" ...

VeniVidiViciTwice · 02/07/2019 08:49

I agree with you.

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 02/07/2019 08:50

Mmm wonder if the OP got all the screenshots they were after 🤔

TheInvestigator · 02/07/2019 08:50

@Ghanagirl
An act of civil disobedience doesn't need to be deliberate and planned in order for it to matter. Rosa had the backing and support of the civil right movement ready and in place to help and support her. Claudette just did it because to her, enough was enough and she had a constitutional right. She did get press, she did cause a flurry of movement and she could have been the instigator if the civil rights movement had seen her a worthy.
I'm not taking any credit away from Rosa Parks. She deserves her place in history and all the credit she gets. I'm just saying, it the 'refusing to give up her seat' stories should also give mention to Claudette. But everyone goes to Rosa Parks; which I think it's unfair to a girl who did it first.

AltasCloud · 02/07/2019 08:51

If this media attention on sex/gender was around me when I was 9/10, I would have been SO confused.

I hated dresses, had no female friends, only boys, climbed trees, dressed in boys clothes and generally did stereotypical 'boy' things. I've never liked pink, dolls or dressing up, and it caused me huge, huge mental anguish to hit puberty early and have big boobs aged 11.

If I had the option to 'be a boy' I absolutely would have taken it. I'd have loved to have surgery to remove my breasts and take hormones to stop my periods. I would have adamantly told my parents I was in the wrong body. I would have fully believed it. I never felt like I fit in and I would have thought THAT was the reason. (It's not, I'm just weird!)

It makes me shudder, now. I absolutely am my biological sex, and I'm very proud to be a woman, just without the expected stereotypical female behaviours.

I'm married to my lovely DH, have lots of amazing female friends and thank my stars I was born in the 80s. I still hate pink and dressing up

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 02/07/2019 08:51

Not going to contribute as such as i think its all be said and very well too

But i do have a question.....OP? If you are still reading

Do you think this thread has gone better for you than posting in feminism chat?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 02/07/2019 08:52

It’s all nonsense. My sister was the ultimate Tom boy.

Today she would have been whisked off by the unicorn brigade (except my parents weren’t crazy and let her have short hair and bough her ‘boy’ clothes and toys).

She is just a boring old woman lesbian - bit of someone has told her kid brain ‘hey you can be a real boy! who knows?

Trans my arse. Why are there so many who claim this now?