‘Two-child limit taking toll on family life’

[SweetMelodies]

www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/two-child-limit-taking-toll-on-family-life-study-suggests/

So the first detailed research into families effected by the 2-child policy, where tax credits are only paid for the first two children unlike in the past when it was every child, has taken place and has found that families are suffering as a direct result of this.

A lot of comments on SM seem to forget that many many working families are effected as well. Even some families with ‘above-average’ incomes used to be entitled to tax credits for a third or subsequent child.

Any thoughts on this? I have mixed feelings as to whether it will work on in the long-run or not. Of course we all know families who have carried on having babies with no thought because each child has meant another monthly tax credits sum... but then there are also the families who are going to face one unplanned pregnancy that could push them into poverty and make their other children suffer.

Off the top of my head there's three families in 'my' estate that this applies too. The children do, and future ones will go without. Two of the fathers are abusive and criminal and I strongly suspect the other one is too.
But until we have decent MH care, drug and alcohol rehab teams and domestic violence support the cycle will continue. Pity the Cameron/ Osbourne government slashed all that.

This two child limit will create more vulnerable children and cost more in the long term.

@User148

Because it is the kids who pay for this, not the parents? They are the ones who are penalised by not having food, etc.

@feelinglazy
And really - it is easy to feed and cloth people in the UK these days? Really? So all those stories about schools having to provide food for kids, the whole concept of "period poverty" etc is just made up?

Sometimes, I really despair of our country.

When you have companies paying poverty wages to the lowest paid among us, then people need benefits to survive. This is the fault of the richest who exploit the poor and in essence are having their companies subsidised by allowing them to keep wages low while CEOs and shareholders swallow record profits.

This is the fault of the idiots who allowed tax credits to be introduced and didn't legislate for a living wage. This really makes me cross. Government is giving business a huge subsidy here and it needs to stop. Companies need to be forced to start paying higher wages, and then HMG can start to cut the welfare bill.

The govt brought in this policy to divide and rule and have clearly succeeded.
The policy hasn’t saved tax payers any money at all. Any savings have been cancelled out by the extra admin costs.
So we are making children live in poverty for what reason exactly? Just to divide and rule.
It’s all about the govt appealing to those who don’t need any benefits by saying they are saving money by punishing the feckless.

We have people begrudging children being fed and clothed because their parents have made decisions that they disagree with. A lot of working families need benefits because living costs are high and wages are low. Not just families with multiple children either, but this policy singles bigger families out as the biggest culprits of fecklessness.
There was lots of higher earning families complaining when their child benefit was removed. I campaigned for keeping it universal even though the changes wouldn’t affect me because it was clear that this was the start of a campaign to divide and rule. Any higher earning families relied on child benefit due to high living costs.

All this thread shows is how easily the govt have successfully dividied us all and how little compassion we have for children born into poverty.

scary even before tax credits were brought in wages were not high enough. House prices and childcare costs have risen drastically over the last 20 years and wages have not kept up with this.
I worked full time in 1997 and I earned £2.90 per hour. I can’t remember if tax credits were around then but my mum had been working for many many years before me and her wages were always below £3 per hour before I entered the workforce.

Will it be the case that children shunned by the system and not recognised through the benefits system will be similarly shunned as adults (in an aging population!) - will their labour and tax contributions not be sought?

Personally, I would cap having the amount of children at two. Population growth is about to absolutely rocket. Current growth rates are unsustainable. Even two children will see a continued growth. Capping children is not a nice thought (I have two and would have quite fancied three), but I worry about the future. Sorry, off topic I know, but currently many I know who are working can only afford 2 children. It seems that it's only those on benefits and the fairly wealthy who seem to be able to afford 3+ (appreciate that this may be a bit of a generalisation).

Yeah I think opinions on this will also rely on whether someone truly believes in unplanned pregnancies happening

When I was on the Pill I forgot to take it once, another time I took it too late in the day. Both times I got the morning after pill.

Most unplanned pregnancies happen to be when the woman is on the pill. The cool/iud it’s much rarer. So yes accidents do happen but let’s not imagine most of the time it’s not due to carelessness.

No one NEEDS more than 2 children.

What the fuck does that mean?

Realistically no one needs ANY children!

Some people on this thread are just spouting nonsense

Good god the judgement and misogyny on this thread. Well done everyone who is doing exactly what the Government hopes, which is focus your anger and judgement on those who are living in poverty and whose lives and children are affected by this, rather than at a Government which can afford not to do this, and can afford to pay a living wage, and can afford to house the homeless but chooses not to in the name of austerity and tax breaks for the rich. Makes me sick.

What if you have a contraception failure? Should you be forced to abort

No you just won’t get benefits for the third? When a lower middle class family have an accidental pregnancy they don’t feel they can afford many go down the route of abortion for that reason. Why should people on benefits be treated any differently?

Social Security benefits are incredibly complex and because of the introduction of Universal Credit many people dont seem to be aware of what entitlements people have. There is some info on universal credit and eligibility from the government here: www.gov.uk/universal-credit

Recent changes to social security and to income tax have effectively cancelled each other out. The government have basically been robbing from the poor and giving to the rich. I dont support the two child limit, it is barbaric and part of a much wider failure to support families in the UK. The UK lags behind other rich nations in terms of family friendly policies (including on issues like maternity and paternity leave and affordable childcare) - have a look at the report from Unicef for more info: www.unicef-irc.org/family-friendly

Children have no choice about the circumstances they are born into. The least we can do in a rich nation like the UK is ensure their basic needs for food, warmth and shelter but right now we dont even seem to be doing that.

JellyBaby666

If they were talking about stopping benefits for all children I would agree with you. But no one NEEDS to have three children.

I know plenty of people who’d have a third if they could afford it but don’t for that reason. Why should people on benefits have their choice to have a large family funded?

@Hithere12

Good for you. I did the same and found out a few weeks later I was pregnant. More than once, actually, I believe in contraception failures because my DC would not exist without them

@WhatdoImean say that to people having to wait on UC for 5 week's, when they do get it it's not enough to live on, families on low incomes are having to use food bank's, nurse's are having to use food bank's, a news report told of a single morher of 2 working 25 hrs a week after she pay's rent bill's etc she has £17 a week to live on, yes this is a wonderful country??

Before you give your two cents, take a good long hard look in the mirror and check your privilege

In other words: ‘How dare you? Shut the hell up!’

Yeah I think opinions on this will also rely on whether someone truly believes in unplanned pregnancies happening

I do believe unplanned pregnancies happen, but I think it's rarer than people make out. My cousin took the pill while she had a stomach bug, threw up, and then had sex with her boyfriend anyway. She described her subsequent pregnancy as an accident. It really wasn't - if you have heterosexual sex without using contraception properly, you are open to having a baby!

I also think some couples are embarrassed that they were careless with contraception, so they claim that their child was conceived via contraception failure. On top of that, there are women who want a baby when their partner doesn't, get sick of waiting, and decide to claim that their pill "failed".

WhatdoImean
Tbh, no it really isn't that difficult to feed and clothe children, other than in extreme circumstances, which I did mention. Food and clothes are very cheap in this country, as is sanitary protection. If children aren't been provided with them then you need to ask the parents why.
Despair all you like, I have been there, my kids never went hungry even if I did sometimes.

I have a question for people here. As the population of the country ages and the majority becomes reliant on NHS, pensions, and social care who is going to prop the system up if we are so keen to cut down on the number of children?

You can't be looked after in your old age if there aren't enough younger people to do it.

@Mylittleqt

🤔 Reading this thread I see a great deal of ‘Benefits shouldnt be for everyone - but only for those dealing with circumstances beyond their control’ you obviously fit into the later category yet jump in ‘shaming’ anyone for suggesting that those who don’t need benefits but claim them anyway shouldn’t be given them!

I’ve literally JUST read a thread from a woman (all children in high school) who is CHOOSING not to work as she HAS to walk her dogs everyday and thinks this is her job 😂😂😂😂😡

Do you see the problem?

I say this with sympathy as I have a disabled sibling which derailed my parents life when they were born- so I get how it affects families - but people like you (who have good reason to need help) jumping in with your ‘unique circumstances shield’ just adds to the problem by providing blanket excuses for those who do not need it!

It’s a bit like the ‘disabled toilet’ situation. They SHOULD be kept free for use by those who need them. But society has become so ‘PC’ that nobody will ever pick anybody else up on using them as they’re too afraid that someone may have an invisible disability. Which is fair, but only 1/10 who are using it do have an invisible disability - so 9/10 are just CF’s who rely on others being too awkward about it to pull them up!

I would have loved to have more children but decided that more than two wouldn’t have been affordable on our family income. I wouldn’t even have had the first if we hadn’t had sufficient family income. Benefits should only be a safety net not a “career choice”.

I have a question for people here. As the population of the country ages and the majority becomes reliant on NHS, pensions, and social care who is going to prop the system up if we are so keen to cut down on the number of children?

I’m more worried about water, food security, antibiotics resistance, deforestation, co2, etc.

Good for you. I did the same and found out a few weeks later I was pregnant. More than once, actually, I believe in contraception failures because my DC would not exist without them

Let me guess. You were in the pill.

It’s always the pill. Funny that? I have a friend who got pregnant accident THREE TIMES on the pill taking it perfectly 🙄

Periodically I forget that mumsnet is full of overpriveliged middle class cunts. Then a thread like this happens

PatoPotato - There won't be a planet to grow old in if there are too many people on it using up resources.