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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

‘Two-child limit taking toll on family life’

999 replies

SweetMelodies · 27/06/2019 10:05

www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/two-child-limit-taking-toll-on-family-life-study-suggests/

So the first detailed research into families effected by the 2-child policy, where tax credits are only paid for the first two children unlike in the past when it was every child, has taken place and has found that families are suffering as a direct result of this.

A lot of comments on SM seem to forget that many many working families are effected as well. Even some families with ‘above-average’ incomes used to be entitled to tax credits for a third or subsequent child.

Any thoughts on this? I have mixed feelings as to whether it will work on in the long-run or not. Of course we all know families who have carried on having babies with no thought because each child has meant another monthly tax credits sum... but then there are also the families who are going to face one unplanned pregnancy that could push them into poverty and make their other children suffer.

OP posts:
Sandybval · 01/07/2019 07:55

@Wereeaglesdare what comments make you sick? Those saying that they agree with the cap as there are other areas of welfare it would better be spent; or those who quite reasonably, say that 2 children is enough, and the reality is that many people regardless of circumstance cannot afford a 3 third? I don't remember seeing any comments condemning, judging or belittling people who claim benefits, and there are a lot of reasonable comments on here. You 3 claim everyone else is out of touch, but I remember 2eternities from a thread about a woman who felt guilty going back to work after having her daughter, and her saying that women should stay at home. How out of touch with reality is that? And that women go to work for pretty and frivolous things, when most go back to pay the bills and would love to stay at home. Everyone is equal whether you work, at this moment in time need the support from welfare, or whatever else, but it actually seems a lot of the people from the latter groups are the ones to make judgements, and wrongly assume that anyone who works is throwing money at new cars, holidays etc when that is not the case and really far out of touch with reality. Before anyone says the old you have no idea chestnut, I've never disclosed my circumstances or how I grew up so no one can judge.

2eternities · 01/07/2019 08:17

I definitely don't have a low IQ, but I did miss out on some of my high school education due to being gang raped and bullied out of school about it but glad you think it's acceptable to throw that in someone's face. Kinda shows again what a vile person you are to be honest. Even your username is utterly bizarre like you have some sort of agenda contraception is my friend.

2eternities · 01/07/2019 08:21

The rich refers to the actual rich, the billionaire corporations etc no one has claimed the middle classes are rich.

Contraceptionismyfriend · 01/07/2019 08:23

PP are right you are incapable of making any decent argument. The moment someone says something you don't like you just throw that at them to try to shock and silence them.

You started with the PA. So don't bitch and moan when others retaliate to your BS.

ChilliAndRiceIsVeryNice · 01/07/2019 08:28

It just makes me realise that alot of people on this website clearly are completely out of touch with issues that are effecting the lower income families and people receiving any kind of support.

This thread is getting ridiculous now, but it’s very telling that you presume people who are in favour of the two child limit are coming from a position of privilege. Perhaps some of them grew up in poverty and believe that anything that incentivises adults who can’t afford kids to continue bringing them into the world isn’t such a good idea. Or perhaps, just perhaps, some have been in abject poverty and knew it’d be irredeemably selfish to have gotten pregnant and had a baby when they couldn’t provide, so waited until their circumstances were better before procreating. You may like to imagine the only people in favour of this are the privileged who’ve lived in ivory towers their whole lives but speaking for myself, you couldn’t be more wrong with that assumption.

Have you forgotten that you are no better than any animal on this planet. Would you tell the hungry lion to stop having cubs. That's what we are just animals who think they know it all.

The most ridiculous attempt at an argument I’ve seen on this thread yet. I certainly don’t believe I’m any better than any other animal (and I’d be willing to bet I live my life in accordance with that belief more consistently than you do), but I’m not stupid enough to think we possess exactly the same mental faculties as a lion. As far as we know, lions don’t have the mental capacity to weigh up whether or not to have cubs, nonhuman animals follow their instinct to have sex and babies follow. They can’t use contraception FGS. Are you really trying to equate other animals following their instinct and having sex and then having babies with human procreation? When we are able to actually think ahead of time whether we want to or can afford to bring a child into the world, and can take steps to prevent that? Going by your logic humans can’t be expected to do any thinking whatsoever beyond going along with lust and therefore it’s okay to pop out as many children as you can physically manage. Because we’re no different to animals, right Hmm

Meanwhile, in the real world, humans have been taking advantage of contraception for hundreds, probably thousands of years, as we are self aware and conscious to understand that when we have a baby that baby is our responsibility, nobody else’s, and decent people don’t want to create a new person who will be born into suffering when they can’t provide for them.

Your own approach of ‘follow your instincts like a lion and who gives a fuck who ends up hurt as a result’ is what’s vile. I don’t think I’m above anyone. I do think that having children is a massive responsibility not to be taken lightly and that prospective parents owe their children, at the very least, some consideration over whether they can afford to put food in their bellies, keep a roof over their head, water in the taps etc. before having unprotected sex. And despite the few dissenters on this thread that’s a very common, reasonable and not at all extreme view. It’s just thinking of others and not just yourself.

2eternities · 01/07/2019 08:28

Sandy I never said that woman should not work I said anyone who wants a family should priorities it earlier not in their late thirties, this is possible whilst working. My entire family works so I'm well aware people arnt always holidaying, I am well aware low wage workers exist and they too are effected by the cap. It's the better off working families that arnt and could probably afford a family if they downsized their finance car and holiday schedule.

ChilliAndRiceIsVeryNice · 01/07/2019 08:30

Before anyone says the old you have no idea chestnut, I've never disclosed my circumstances or how I grew up so no one can judge.

It’s the oldest trick in the book. ‘You don’t agree with me, not because you actually have a differing opinion but because you’ve never been in that position’, thrown at anyone indiscriminately despite having zero knowledge of the poster’s background or circumstances. It’s just boring. Not even worth counteracting, you don’t owe someone like that your private personal history just to try gain validity in their eyes as they’ll try find another loophole or accuse you of lying 🙄

Hithere12 · 01/07/2019 08:40

You will not stop people having children it's fucking nature

Hmm First off this doesn’t effect children born before a certain date. I think it’s 2017 so people would have known about this policy before making the decision to have a third.

Oh and because low IQ morons who breed like animals having child after child they can’t afford we should all pay for these idiots?! They can still have children and receive benefits but they’re limited to two!! Just like millions of families who can only afford two children.

swingofthings · 01/07/2019 08:41

You will not stop people having children it's fucking nature and it cannot be controlled
This has to be the quote of this thread! Sleeping is also nature and can't be controlled, but hey ho, most people use an alarm clock in the morning to get up to go to work and take kids to school! What a pathetic argument to make.

As for the 'how dare the government fail children whose parents make poor decisions', this is a reality. Many parents actually argue that the government should totally butt out because they are entitled to raise their kids as they see fit. They don't want to be told to breastfeed, to vaccinate, or to send their kids to school. You can't pick and chose when the gov gets involved and when it doesn't.

Also, child neglect is not just a matter of non-working families. Many kids get abused in rich families. It might not be physical but instead emotional, when they are put under massive pressure to perform at school at extra curriculum activities, and that abuse might also leave scars that will affect them for the rest of their adult life. Bad parents come in all shape and forms.

Thankfully, the gov is still putting measures in place so that children basic needs are met. Food banks ensure kids don't starve, HB ensure they have a roof over their health, they have access to free healthcare (something most people take for granted in this country), free good education. Charities are in place to help with other essential needs.

What they don't get is extra money to do whatever they want with because sadly, that's another sad fact that many parents, poor or rich, much rather spend the money they receive on themselves than their kids.

The best thing society can do is whatever it takes to make parents be more responsible for the children they give birth too, make them realise that having a child is not just an extra pleasure to make them happy, but a massive responsibility to another human being and society.

Xenia · 01/07/2019 08:48

I can see there are strong views on the thread, which perhaps illustrates why this change in law was needed,

There are for many the solutions of taking on more work. i was working full time when I had a 3 week old baby. It is not impossible.

2eternities · 01/07/2019 08:48

Just admit your comment was rather cruel to someone whto missed o on

swingofthings · 01/07/2019 08:50

I never said that woman should not work I said anyone who wants a family should priorities it earlier not in their late thirties, this is possible whilst working
Well, a good to be parent doesn't go and pick any partner to bread with just to have a child when they decide they want one. A good to be parent pick the right partner to parent with. Sadly, some are lucky to meet this person in their 20s, others are less fortunate and don't get to do so until later in their 30s.

AlaskanOilBaron · 01/07/2019 08:50

Have you forgotten that you are no better than any animal on this planet. Would you tell the hungry lion to stop having cubs. That's what we are just animals who think they know it all.

The most ridiculous attempt at an argument I’ve seen on this thread yet

Well, yes. This thread has taken a strange turn. I don't think there's any reasoning with someone who thinks that birth control simply doesn't work/humans can't successfully execute basic family planning.

2eternities · 01/07/2019 08:57

Missed out on education through no fault of their own, anyway we've already established you lack empathy for others and this website is running really slow for me this morning for some reason so I'm off.

Also to the above poster you really shouldn't insinuate people on benefits spend the money on themselves, the few that do will rightly end up with ss involvement but the vast majority spend the money on what it should go on, seeing as they don't get much in the first place. Great excuse for making children suffer though! Did you read the recent thread about posters neglected as adolescents? Most said their family was middle class and had money just chose not to provide, it ain't just poor people who can be shitty parents and let's face it at least the poor have poverty and the issues that comes with as an 'excuse', these parents with money had none they were just selfish and didn't give a shit about their children despite being able to 'afford' them. Many poor women go hungry so their kids can eat.

ChilliAndRiceIsVeryNice · 01/07/2019 09:00

I can see there are strong views on the thread, which perhaps illustrates why this change in law was needed

I oppose a Tory government for many reasons, but I think this change in policy was necessary, and it’s obvious from reading this thread that people who would have otherwise gone through life expecting benefits to raise their children really, really don’t like it when that’s taken away and they’re expected to take some personal responsibility. Which is to be expected I guess, but plenty of notice was given, it wasn’t sprung on anyone. If you chose to have a child after the cut off date you did so in full knowledge of the benefits package you’d be entitled to.

2eternities this entire thread, as you’ve been pulled up on before, when you feel the heat and are being challenged you throw out shocking details in the hope that someone will shy away from responding to your points for fear of being seen as someone who dares to continue debating with someone who has informed them, again, about their past sexual abuse. That’s pretty manipulative so I don’t think you’re in any position to be demanding apologies.

AlaskanOilBaron it’s bizarre. Kinda glad it’s nearing forty pages so it can be put to bed! Still chuckling to myself at the comparison between a hungry lion having cubs and human beings planning their families. I reckon she sprained her elbow a bit with that reach.

ChilliAndRiceIsVeryNice · 01/07/2019 09:01

anyway we've already established you lack empathy for others and this website is running really slow for me this morning for some reason so I'm off.

Yes, you said you were off already previously, are you actually off this time or is it just another flounce? It’s getting a bit silly.

Contraceptionismyfriend · 01/07/2019 09:02

@2eternities Just admit your comment was rather cruel to someone...

I'll do no bloody such thing. I think you're ridiculous and use your history as a stick to beat people with whenever they disagree with you.

Why should I silence myself because of your delicate disposition. If you can't have a reasonable discussion without the theatrics then the internet is not for you.

2eternities · 01/07/2019 09:03

She specifically said she was busy building her career and home. That's a lifestyle choice I know plenty came out of uni got a job settled down and had kids mid to late 20s, that poster had not made any effort to find a partner she said so herself that she was busy. It's a lifestyle choice to wait till your late thirties to start looking at settling down. Even other posters said people do do this, waste their 20s with men who don't want kids, or just dawdle thinking it will just happen one day.

2eternities · 01/07/2019 09:07

Contraception you didn't disagree with anything, just read the post. It was a personal insult about my intelligence and education level. Not that either has any baring on how decent a person you are, I mean just look at Matthew Falder.

AlaskanOilBaron · 01/07/2019 09:07

Missed out on education through no fault of their own, anyway we've already established you lack empathy for others and this website is running really slow for me this morning for some reason so I'm off.

We often hear this sort of unreasoned logic coming from the extreme left.

You have to hold net receivers of means-tested benefits to a basic standard of responsibility, or the people who are left paying the tab lose all interest in supporting a welfare state. This is not going to change; it's basic human nature (much like a lion guarding its resources!). Wink

Contraceptionismyfriend · 01/07/2019 09:09

@2eternities so you can throw around PA all you want. But nobody else can?

Contraceptionismyfriend · 01/07/2019 09:09

And just out of curiosity. Did anyone find out what level of Tax Simba pays to the Savanna?

swingofthings · 01/07/2019 09:11

Most said their family was middle class and had money just chose not to provide, it ain't just poor people who can be shitty parents and let's face it at least the poor have poverty and the issues that comes with as an 'excuse'
Which is EXACTLY what I've written and shows you only read what you want to see.

That's the point, poor and rich people neglect their kids. Do you suggest money is given to kids of rich parents who don't use it properly on them too?

2eternities · 01/07/2019 09:14

Chilli, it seems to be working a bit better now. And if you look I have left the thread several times and return later because I do have things to do. I never said I'm leaving the thread permanently! Sometimes it's annoying to post when it's running slow.

Anyway back to the topic, why has not one person addressed my point of my head of children's services saying cuts and this cap are contributing to an increase of kids in care which is pushing the local authority to breaking point? Is it moral for kids lives to be destroyed over money? Poverty puts a lot of stress on families and causes mental health problems. This is already costing the country a fortune, much more than it would to provide for families properly. Of course kids losing their homes and families is a small price to pay for you lot to feel like you've got one up on people you see as below you.

swingofthings · 01/07/2019 09:17

that poster had not made any effort to find a partner she said so herself that she was busy

Ha ha, so being busy prevents you from meeting someone to want to commit your rest of your life with? What alternative you propose? Going out every night to find someone? Go on dating sites and meet numerous strangers until one fits the bill?

Oh I forgot, it's nature call to reproduce as much as possible, so finding a mate must be part of it. Some people are indeed not much different to animals!