AIBU to cut off friend who thinks I am racist?

[Screamanger]

Her reasoning being that my grandfather worked in the British Colonial Service in Tanzania. Apparently this means I directly profited from racism.

I don’t believe I have profited, and I am proud of my family.

@RonaldMcDonald
You did profit from colonialism. Examining that contextually is the next step. You can critique and remain proud of your family.
All our families have something currently or in the past we wouldn’t repeat given how we view the world today.

That's simply not true. I'm Irish, for 800 years my forebears would have been at the bottom of the heap; I carry absolutely no guilt re racism.

As for all British people being accused of profiting from colonialism, that's just rubbish. Peasants are peasants. There were no trickle-down benefits for people living in poverty. You only have to watch a few WDYTYAs to see how miserable, short and brutal life was for most ordinary people, frequently ending in the workhouse. And the workhouse was considered to be charity.

@IAmAlwaysLikeThis

Nicky, aren't you very bright?

Let's start with a personal attack, why not?

Maybe you need to read up on how black and other ethnic minority soldiers were treated during the war.

I had a great uncle who fought with the 20th Indian Infantry Division in WW2 in Burma and French Indo-China. He died when I was 20 but I met him a few times and also heard stories from other family members. So, I don't need to "read up" on things, I know from directly speaking to people who have experienced this to know how non-white soldiers were treated by white officers.

But that isn't really the point.

The OP said that she was proud of her GF for being awarded the DSO - quite rightly so in my opinion.

But @Ghanagirl then replied saying that her GF's bravery went unrewarded with the implication that it was due to his race:-

like most black men his bravery went unrewarded

Well I'm sorry but most men's bravery went unrewarded - black, white or Asian (as did most women's).

For Ghanagirl girl to imply that her GF was deserving of a medal for gallantry and didn't get one because of his race is quite a big statement to make and she would really need to provide something to back up that claim otherwise it just sounds as though she is whinging.

Oh for pete's sake, people choose to get so offended by everything, even things out of your control such as this. I wouldn't lose no sleep cutting off someone who constantly finds things to take issue with about yourself. Life is too short for that drama.

As for all British people being accused of profiting from colonialism, that's just rubbish.

It's not rubbish. A large part of why Britain is a wealthy country today is due to riches earned during the centuries of colonialism.

Saying a society benefited from slavery or colonialism doesn't mean that life for every single person in it was great and prosperous. Stop trying to move the goal posts.

It's not rubbish. A large part of why Britain is a wealthy country today is due to riches earned during the centuries of colonialism.

Yes and as British society became more democratic, meritocratic and socially mobile (not fully but more) through the C20th, a lot of people descended from the least fortunate, the oppressed, gained the chance to benefit from this national wealth and all the opportunities it offered. They too became indirect beneficiaries of colonialism.

Complicated isn't it.

Which is why identifying yourself with a particular ancestor, at a particular time, is never a sensible or supportable thing to do.

I seriously advise that the navel gazers google a few phrases.

Like, 'String of Pearls' and 'Belt And Road Action Plan'.

Our new colonisers are on their way. Trump's Trade War is just an attempt to stop the economic decline of the USA.

*BertrandRussell

“Woke = tedious pain in the backside.”
But not necessarily wrong.
This

edgeofheaven
As for all British people being accused of profiting from colonialism, that's just rubbish.

It's not rubbish. A large part of why Britain is a wealthy country today is due to riches earned during the centuries of colonialism.

Britain may be a wealthy country, but AFAICS it benefitted the hoi polloi only in the sixties and seventies, and since then has reverted back to the same as it ever was. I'm genuinely shocked when I read posts on here - which seem to reflect the reality of life for many - where both parents are working ft and still can only survive by having benefits topping up their wages/salaries. You're not living in some golden age in a wealthy country, you're all scraping by while the rich get richer, nothing has changed.

Comforting lies are for children, but there are plenty of adults on this thread who will choose to believe them because they don’t have the moral courage to face reality. And then they have the cheek to call people who believe in institutionalised racism pathetic...!

You didn't choose to profit from it, ergo you are not racist because of it.

If you hold discriminatory views then you are racist.

I may be a bit shocked but I wouldn't refuse to talk to say, Hitlers great nephew, because he was related to him. In fact, a few family members were against him completely.

Completely narrow minded and not using her brain here.

My father's family were starved and many were driven into exile by the English during the Highland Clearances, which happened between 1750-1860. At least one was hanged.

Those who say we all benefited from the British Empire ignore the fact that people at the bottom of the heap, like the Welsh miners on my mother's side, didn't gain anything. It was only middle class and up people who did well.

All sorts of shit happened in history. No point in bearing grudges. It would be absurd for me to blame the English for the suffering of my Highland forebears.

It's not rubbish. A large part of why Britain is a wealthy country today is due to riches earned during the centuries of colonialism

It wasn’t a one-way street. There were good and bad aspects of colonialism. Like everything else in history, it’s a mixed bag. Britain benefited in some ways, other nations benefited in others. We can look at it in the round.

Those who say we all benefited from the British Empire ignore the fact that people at the bottom of the heap, like the Welsh miners on my mother's side, didn't gain anything. It was only middle class and up people who did well.

Very true.

Hang on...what did the British colonial service do in Tanzania? I bet they did a lot of good stuff. Do we know for a fact that they were all racist? I don't feel we know enough about them to agree they were all awful people and racists. In a lot of African countries, they created a really good infrastructure, houses, towns, schools, hospitals.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/319069/

Paper on how colonialism had a negative impact on health services in Tanzania.

“The particular way in which health problems were conceptualized during the colonial era, the structure of the medical services established, and the effects of health care on the health status and size of the rural population of Songea District in Tanzania are shown in the article to have been determined by the economic, social, and political requirements of German and British colonial rulers rather than by the health needs of the African population.”

@TabbyMumz you've not read the rest of the thread have you?

If you (the OP's grandfather) benefitted from having people paid less than him because of the colour of their skin... then he benefitted from racism.
So the OP needs to have a think about that.

So the OP needs to have a think about that

Recognise that we’ve come a long way since then, and be glad of it, and then she can carry on with her own life.

Comforting lies are for children, but there are plenty of adults on this thread who will choose to believe them because they don’t have the moral courage to face reality. And then they have the cheek to call people who believe in institutionalised racism pathetic...!

This.

@drspouse..he was harbourmaster, he absolutely should have been paid more than the manual workers were. As he would have been if he was in any other country. There is a lot more to this debate than people are aware of. Colonialism did not always equal bad. Well done to the Ops grandfather for carrying out such an important role.

He worked in an office with people who were just as able as him but couldn't rise to a higher level because of the colour of their skin. That is exactly how the colonial system worked. And the labourers couldn't get office jobs because they didn't have education because universal education wasn't funded in the colonies for all children in the way it was in the UK.

The system was set up so that ALL white workers got paid more than ALL black workers, and black workers could not rise above a certain rank. If you are defending the colonial employment system then you are either trolling or clearly racist as it's indefensible.

@edgeofheaven..."paper on how colonialism had a negative impact on health services in Tanzania."...

That's not how I've read that...there wasn't a health service in Tanzania before the Europeans arrived. The article talks about the results on health of families whose men had moved away for work. The health service was brought in to help with that.

@TabbyMumz

"To provide workers for the plantations, a system of labor migration was instituted. Songea District became an area that supplied male workers to other parts of the country, with grave consequences to the health and nutrition of the women and children left behind" is really, really not the same thing as 'moving away for work'. Europeans didn't arrive and benevolently set up health care for abandoned women and children whose menfolk had chosen to move away for the fun of it, they were the reason those men were moved away in the first place.

"Extensive malnutrition and persistent ill health related to poor diet are thus traced directly to capitalist underdevelopment of th Tanzanian economy and the structural distortions of a dependent relationship between Tanzania and the metropolitan power." Really, really being colonised was not to the benefit of (or intended to be to the benefit of) Tanzanian people. It was Europeans going in with knife and fork to take all their stuff.

I'd equate that with the catholics then and original sin. Of course the catholics do a great line in perpetuating sin and harm. Maybe that's why they are so obsessed by it.

I had no idea the 'benevolent colonialist' trope still lived. Thanks Tabby you're like a dinosaur skeleton in a museum.

Have a little read about Julius Nyerere. He's was a bit of a teenage hero of mine (ignore the weird Hitler moustache). There were great African leaders post-colonial era but they were hampered by being left a terrible colonial legacy and ongoing interference in the region (including debt, cold-war being hot there, American interventionism, tied aid, war in other regions spilling over, the IMF and World Bank, Western support for South Africa and other terrible regimes, existing tribal and border issues instituted in colonial times, and a host of other issues).

An should we all go around feeling guilty? No. But when there are discussions about immigration, health tourism, illegal wars, Ebola, racism, prejudice, Black History Month, maybe take a tiny pause and think, "where does my initial feeling come from?"

And I take people's points about being Scottish, Irish, living in poverty in the UK. My family isn't English. And we certainly weren't rich at the time. Lots of miners and mill workers and farmers. And no one said, "everyone feel guilty". But examining racism and privilege is important. We still live in a world with Steve Bannon and the Daily Mail. It's a good idea to think critically.