AIBU to cut off friend who thinks I am racist?

[Screamanger]

Her reasoning being that my grandfather worked in the British Colonial Service in Tanzania. Apparently this means I directly profited from racism.

I don’t believe I have profited, and I am proud of my family.

*not racist, not kit

Why are you proud of your grandfather's role in the British Colonial Service in Tanzania, specifically?

I understand you thinking of him as a lovely person in general. But to be proud of the work he did for a particular organisation, you would need to know what that organisation did, what its aim was, what the political context was at the time.

And, as you are choosing to declare this pride now, in the current political and social context, you need to know what the legacy of its work has been.

What did you find out about that on your trip? About the legacy of that organisation? About how Tanzanians perceive it now?

Pride is a very strong, very specific thing to feel. You feel pride for someone's achievement, not for them just being themselves. That's liking, or general admiration of them as a person, rather than admiration for what they did.

If you declared yourself proud of your grandfather's role in a colonial organisation, it is not unreasonable for your friend to have understood that as you declaring support, now, for what that organisation did then and for the continuing consequences of that. If that organisation did racist things (which given its name and place seems pretty likey) then....

Think more, know more, before declaring your 'pride' in what someone has done.

Pride is a very strong word. I think you were misusing it to mean something else, that didn't relate directly to actions and achievements. You and your friend may therefore have been talking at cross purposes.

I do think there's more room for that linguistic misunderstanding now. Pride has become connected to identity, used as the opposite of ashamed, as in gay pride, out and proud. That detaches it from achievement. It also strengthens its link to identity and to political declaration.

That is what your friend heard - you aligning yourself politically with a colonial identity.

"No it’s all the UK’s fault!"

Where do people like you come up with this shite?

Have you honestly seen anyone ever say "I only care about British colonialism, everyone else was fine"?

No. You're just talking shite.

What your GPs did should not rest on your shoulders, fo course not. But obviously your family did benefit, and you sound astonishingly ignorant of what the British did in Australia and how utterly utterly deviating it was for the aboriginal peoples.

I would love there, OP, you’d fit right in.

@Ghanagirl Thu 27-Jun-19 06:35:38

My grandpa also fought for GB in ww2 but like most black men his bravery went unrewarded

Are you really trying to claim that the reason your grandfather wasn't awarded a DSO in WW2 was because he was black? Seriously?

I'm sure he fought bravely, but perhaps he didn't actually do anything worthy of a DSO?

In WW2 there were only 4,880 DSOs awarded and there were something like 3 million British soldiers plus many more from the Empire and the Commonwealth. Plus all the sailors as well (OP siad her GF was in the navy).

4,880 people received them out of many millions that served and you think your grandfather didn't get one because he was black???

If my grandfather had been awarded a DSO then I would be proud of him as well and I quite understand the OP's feelings.

Deviating should read devastating

And love should read live. Australia is full of white people who don’t give a stuff about the aboriginal community.

"Are you really trying to claim that the reason your grandfather wasn't awarded a DSO in WW2 was because he was black? Seriously?"

Nicky, aren't you very bright? Is that really what you read into that?

Maybe you need to read up on how black and other ethnic minority soldiers were treated during the war.

I'd encourage anyone who thinks they have no biases to do some of the tests about race on here.

implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/selectatest.html

Eye-opening.

Why do you need to cut her off?

You don't sound well-suited as friends so just let it fizzle out.

Dump the friend OP. You can’t argue against that mindset.

And to all the posters whining that OP has profited from colonialism- if she has, so have you. You’re here, in Britain. I take it you’re all wearing your sackcloth and ashes and constantly berating yourself your audacity at having been born here?

“And to all the posters whining that OP has profited from colonialism- if she has, so have you. You’re here, in Britain. I take it you’re all wearing your sackcloth and ashes and constantly berating yourself your audacity at having been born here? hmm”
No. But acknowledging the fact does no harm, surely? And having some sensitivity and understanding how it underpins racial relationships now? Otherwise it’s all a bit “hey black people-we won, get over it!”

"And to all the posters whining that OP has profited from colonialism- if she has, so have you. You’re here, in Britain. I take it you’re all wearing your sackcloth and ashes and constantly berating yourself your audacity at having been born here?"

Where do you people come up with this shite from, seriously?

But acknowledging the fact does no harm, surely?

That’s not what you want. You want people to feel guilty, to feel ashamed, to feel culpable for (and make amends for) the sins of their ancestors.

"That’s not what you want. You want people to feel guilty, to feel ashamed, to feel culpable for (and make amends for) the sins of their ancestors."

Point to the post that says that.

'For the record, I’m white'

I'm interested, why do you need to mention that?

Yes cut them off, they're bat shit.

4,880 people received them out of many millions that served and you think your grandfather didn't get one because he was black?

Neither did my grandfather, or any of his brothers, and they were all immensely proud to have fought in that war. I can imagine he’d feel slightly at my taking offence on his behalf because he wasn’t awarded the appropriate honours in my opinion!

“That’s not what you want. You want people to feel guilty, to feel ashamed, to feel culpable for (and make amends for) the sins of their ancestors”

No I don’t. Well, actually, I think there are circumstance where “making amends” can be an appropriate response, yes. But the other stuff? No- just bollocks you’ve made up.

My grandfather was a harbor master so not massively high up.
So he will have been directly ordering around low paid Tanzanian workers and he probably had assistants who were just as capable as him who were paid less and given less responsibility based on the colour of their skin.
So he did benefit.
You need to think about this a good deal more.

Harbour Master is a senior role.

Of course most people in Britain have profited from colonialism. It contributed massively to the development of the British economy in the C19th, forming the basis of what that is today.

Acknowledging that comes with knowledge of history.

Acknowledgement of those facts and their legacy today does not require anyone to pretend to be a historic character, so take direct responsibility for someone else's choices.

That is the problem with what OP is doing. She is aligning herself too closely with her grandfather's choices and actions, by declaring her pride in the very specific work he did. She is setting herself up as an apologist for colonialism (apologist = one who argues for, not one who apologises for - but these are two sides of the same coin).

Examining the legacy of colonialism and what we can all do to redress injustices in the present day context is a complex but necessary process. It doesn't require anyone to identfy with historic characters.

And yes, my British ancestors benefited too.

Well, actually, I think there are circumstance where “making amends” can be an appropriate response, yes

Fine. How should the descendants of the man who murdered my great-grandmother make amends for his crime? He’s long gone, but I want to hold them responsible now. Any ideas?

That’s not what you want. You want people to feel guilty, to feel ashamed, to feel culpable for (and make amends for) the sins of their ancestors

Nobody has said that at all. You are seriously projecting there.

Your ancestry cannot be changed. There's no point in being ashamed of it. It cannot be erased from history. If it wasn't for our direct ancestors then none of us would be here today. They were what they were. They did what they did. All in the context of the era in which they lived.

We can learn a lot from it. We can look back and see what was good and what was less so.

Colonialism and the attitudes that went with it was damaging to native people of a country that was being invaded. Few of us (I hope, anyway) would seek to condone it today. The world moves on.

There is no harm in acknowledging the damage done.