AIBU to cut off friend who thinks I am racist?

[Screamanger]

Her reasoning being that my grandfather worked in the British Colonial Service in Tanzania. Apparently this means I directly profited from racism.

I don’t believe I have profited, and I am proud of my family.

“Fine. How should the descendants of the man who murdered my great-grandmother make amends for his crime? He’s long gone, but I want to hold them responsible now. Any ideas?”

Well, if they had stolen his gold watch and were still using it, I think they should give it back to you, no?

Cut her off. She can virtue signal away to the new colonisers, the Chinese.

History is gradually being re-examined and there is a move away from seeing empire as benign and enlightening.
DH’s country (Algeria) was colonised by the French and they haven’t left a great legacy there. The buildings are nice but the government is not - actually most of the government are currently in jail following months of street protests.
The history of Britain in India has some very grim episodes and partition caused a bloodbath.

Britain’s status in the world was built on Empire and we have to accept that colonialism is often based on seeing your own culture and race as superior to the one being colonised. None of us are responsible for the past but we do need to look at it honesty.

Having said that - your Grandfather was a product of his time. He sounds like a very brave man. He would have had a very different view of the colonial service and quite possibly felt he was making a positive contribution to the development of Tanzania.

I think a lot of problem around the current racism debate is language. People use the word "racist" to describe anything from a person who has physically/verbally abused a BAME person, to a person who has made a well intentioned but politically incorrect comment, to someone who has unconscious bias. It is no wonder that people in the latter two categories then take offence at being tarred with the same brush as someone in the first. To be labelled as a racist is very hurtful when you have no ill intent towards BAME people but just some education. Maybe we need a new word to describe these people. Just my thoughts.

And what does anyone think the Zulus were up to in Southern Africa?

Actually, there is an extensive body of work that suggests Shaka and the zulus would not have developed militarily the way they did if it hadn't been for Europeans moving into Southern Africa and displacing large swathes of other black populations and leading to additional hostilities throughout the region as they battled for resources and land.....

I am always surprised by people who can't see how legacy issues are relevant. It doesn't mean you need to be wearing ash and sack clothes, but acknowledging the fact that society has systematically made life easier for certain groups who still benefit today doesn't seem crazy.

Thank you MrsTP, IAmAlwaysLikeThis and Vivienne and others who have taken the time to eloquently explain those positions. I'm really heartened that there's such thoughtfulness out there, it's not something I often encounter with this issue of race

OP, of course you can be proud of the kind and brave actions of your GF during WW2. But at the same time, why should his participation in colonialism also engender or deserve that pride?

For Provincialbelle and others - a history lesson.

The countries that were settler colonies - i.e. British/European people moved there to live - look better today than the ones that were solely economic or extractive colonies.

So that's why a lot of the Caribbean islands, Singapore, Hong Kong look much different than Nigeria or Tanzania. Because most of the African colonies had more hostile conditions - climate, diseases - British didn't settle there, they only went on government or military posts, or maybe as missionaries. If you are in a settler colony you're rather incentivised to ensure you don't live in a shithole so you invest in more infrastructure.

I do think lots of white people are racist as the frequent threads on Meghan Markle seem to prove.
So having a low opinion of MM makes you racist?! It is possible to have negative thoughts about someone who isn't white that don't relate to the colour of their skin you know? I'd guess that most posters who disapprove of her do so because they see her as a social climber, or lazy, or too keen on spending taxpayers' money. Basically the same reasons as plenty of people dislike Kate, who happens to be white. Not everything is about race and suggesting that white people behave that way is in itself racist.

Did she actually call you a racist?

I can't see the point in feeling personally ashamed or proud of something your ancestors did. Fascinated in the history of your family and country, of course; but it's a nonsense to feeling personally culpable or proud for something that was absolutely nothing to do with you.

it's a nonsense to feeling personally culpable or proud for something that was absolutely nothing to do with you.

Completely agree with this and perhaps it's why I struggle to understand OP's mindset.

If you wish to be emotionally invested in the actions of previous generations, that comes with good and bad. I mean, I don't think my grandfather was racist but I'm pretty sure that he was as most men of his generation were pretty sexist. That doesn't mean my brother is sexist, it's not inherited through DNA.

OP do you really want to end a current friendship right now over feeling offended about the things your grandfather may or may not have done 70 years ago?

My grandparents didn’t benefit from colonialism, they suffered from it as they were all Irish, so I guess that from that POV I am free from guilt or shame. However they were undoubtedly racist and used words that would be deeply offensive today. Even as a small child, growing up in a ethnically mixed part of London, I knew that their views were wrong and embarrassing and didn’t share them. It didn’t and doesn’t make me love them less. They were genuinely ignorant and knew no better.

I feel strongly that we shouldn’t judge people from previous generations by what we know to be true today but should try to move forwards and stop history repeating itself. Which is why I won’t be voting Labour again until they address the anti-semitism that seems to be part of their present culture.

God, I'm a berk, misread Tanzania for Tasmania. I'll get my coat...

There is no harm in acknowledging the damage done

Of course not. But all anyone can be is just and fair in their own time. What’s done is done. Those people, attitudes and times have long gone. We cannot right the wrongs even if we wished to. We can only learn from history. It can’t be used as a club with which to beat those now living.

Like most things in history, the Empire was neither intuitively good or bad - it was a mix of both.

There are lots of posts like this at the moment and I wonder if they are all genuine. I think certain people are opening fake posts to create racial tension, rather than resolve it.

I completely abhor what the British have done in the past. I think it is absolutely shameful. However, it's very upsetting being called racist just because you are white. The fact that you are assuming that all white people are inherently prejudiced is a sweeping generalisation in itself. Which makes your friends statement a touch hypocritical. Going by your friends statement, my 3 month old is already racist due to being white British, which is a bit bonkers really. The only thing going on in his head is wanting a boob or wondering what all the pretty patterns are!

I'm not sure about what my ancestry have done in the past, but it's a shame that we are not learning from past mistakes. I agree that there are some people out there spreading hate and racists attitudes. I have called people out in it if I have seen them do it. I completely understand why there would be resentment towards those who have commited racist acts, but the blame should lie with those people, not every white person who ever lived. Isn't that taking the responsibility and blame from them a little?

No doubt the majority of Brits benefitted from colonialism. It's about culpability though. An interesting debate rather sullied by non-nuanced accusations of racism.

I completely abhor what the British have done in the past. I think it is absolutely shameful

Not everything, surely?

Lots of people took jobs in previous generations because those jobs were available. It was an extension of the civil service. To be judged by that decision of a relative now is unfair. The relative would not necessarily have been able to choose where they worked and looking back and judging ordinary people so negatively is wrong. The world was different then.

Importing doctors and other professionals from the poor countries that train them and exporting arms
As a professional who came to the UK from a poor country, I find this statement somewhere between amusing and slightly insulting.
No one has "imported" me, I am not a commodity, and I am able to make decisions about where to work and what to do - just as any UK professional in my area is . I am in (moral, they wont accept financial compensation) debt to my family for supporting me through my education and training, not to my country of origin - there are very few to none opportunities to get something there for "free", as in the UK.

Is there a word for the situation where some people are trying to have a reasonably nuanced conversation on colonialism, post colonialism and their effect on modern race relations and then other people start stomping about accusing them of calling all white people racist and wanting them to grovel and wear sackcloth and ashes? I suppose it’s a version of the “dead cat on the table....”. Whatever it is, it’s very tedious.

Isn't the bigger point that we can't understand where we are now until we face our past? Others rightly point out Britain was built on the backs of Africa, India, China etc ...and still benefits today. Followed by the inevitable sneerers when its factually correct. Proving that 70yrs since the end of the empire we still haven't got over ourselves, which led to Brexit, which is now tearing the country apart limb by limb, and it ain't over yet. We are where we are today exactly because of our collective relatives pasts.

Nice frothy thread @Screamanger but from what you’ve posted she didn’t actually call you racist, did she?

She said your family has profited from racism which it absolutely has. You can’t change it, it’s not your fault. But it’s true.

And I’d be careful of declaring to all and sundry how proud you are of your family’s past when you are totally willfully ignorant of what it was.

I would stop pretending I’d been called racist, read a history book, and acknowledge that racism was a given in your grandfather’s career. Then I’d get over it. 🤷🏻‍♀️

And to all the posters whining that OP has profited from colonialism- if she has, so have you. You’re here, in Britain. I take it you’re all wearing your sackcloth and ashes and constantly berating yourself your audacity at having been born here?

Yes, I've benefited from colonialism. I benefit from the wealth this country has. I benefit from being white as well. Do i wear sackcloth and ashes? No. Do I have a think about it? Yes. Acknowledge it, bear it in mind when interviewing, think about it when I encounter people in different situations where an unconscious bias on my part might make me react in a certain way? Yes.

Years ago I was cycling through suburban Manchester. A group of young black men came cycling out of a side street onto the main road I was cycling on. They scared me. I wasn't sure what they would do or if I was at risk. This was back in the 1990s when Manchester was rougher than it is now, although better than it was in the 1980s. One of the group circled back round, chatted to me and was very apologetic about scaring me. But I'm pretty sure he knew damn well I'd have been less scared if the group had been white, because I've been conditioned to be more scared of groups of black youths. So what do you think he feels like going round apologising for this? To know all the time that his presence will sometimes scare people for no other reason than his skin colour? It's not about apologising, or blaming the UK for everything. It's about being thoughtful, considerate and funnily enough, considering all the shades of grey in between being a racist thug, and realising that sometimes subconsciously you make judgements based on skin colour.

I guess - hope - that you the OP have learnt a little more about British Colonialism as a result of this thread.

I think it's no bad thing to be proud of his rescue achievements. I have a grandfather who was given a medal for rescuing a child from drowning. I can only imagine his mixed feelings because he went back to help the child's father, and couldn't save him. He also served in WW2 in India and I don't know specifics because he would never talk about them. I guess he had seen and perhaps did things that were horrific. I think it's perfectly possible to separate out actions, and be proud of our ancestor for one thing but not be proud of other things.

If you say you are proud of somebody for serving in an organisation that you don't have a clue what they stood for or did, then that's at best an ill-informed opinion. If you're friend means something to you, perhaps researching the organisation and the impact of Colonialism on the country would be the Hubble and worthwhile thing to do. You can still be proud of his brave and kind actions, and you can acknowledge that they were different times, whilst acknowledging the harm that we now know the organisation did.

Colonisation is the very act of inserting yourself in a land that is not your own and taking control over the people of that land.

So I can understand why your friend might feel that way, if you expressed pride in your GF working for the organisation he did....because he was part of it.

It's marginally better than being proud of an ancestor who was a wealthy slavemaster.

I remember a colleague once telling me he and his family used to live in Uganda.... "until that bas*d Idi Amin kicked us out" he said.

I don't know how he said it with a straight face, considering how the Ugandans were treated by this particular ethic group of people were taking over everything in the country.

If that's the only reason for her thinking you're racist, then yes. You are not responsible for what your grandfather did or didn't do. Blaming people for what their ancestors did is in itself prejudiced. But of course there may be other aspects to the story which I don't know.