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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be a little perturbed to have discovered that my next door neighbour is a Creationist?

276 replies

Greensleeves · 25/06/2019 22:59

DH overheard our next door neighbour having a row with his wife in the back garden yesterday. He was insisting - belligerently - that the Earth is 6000 years old, Stephen Hawking was an idiot and the moon landing was faked. His wife was cackling and saying things like "but it's basic GCSE physics!".

For the avoidance of dripfeed: he's a dour, ill-mannered git who bellows at his kids all weekend and lets his dog shit on our drive.

OP posts:
Mrs9C · 29/06/2019 13:24

@BertrandRussell I couldn't exactly date it, but going via biblical generations, less than 8000 years old, or thereabouts

LakieLady · 29/06/2019 13:25

How can complex physiology come by chance?

It's not chance, it's evolution.

How does it make sense that your bodily systems work together so well?

Because if they didn't, you'd die before you reproduced, and your species would die out.

Where are all the 'in-between' beings from evolution?

They died out, because they were no longer fit for purpose.

How can beauty come from mess?

Beauty is a human construct. It's not an actual thing. A slug or a giraffe has no concept of beauty. And it varies between cultures, and according to the fashion of the day within cultures.

How is there order in the world?

I don't believe there is. Some things in the world are downright fucking chaotic. I mean, have you ever been into Brighton on a busy Saturday?

How even does everything work?

I doubt if most on here could explain how a lot of man-made things work, so perhaps a bit of a big ask. And if any MNer on this thread happens to understand how particle acceleraotrs work, please enlighten me. DP has given up trying to explain it in a way that I can understand. (In fairness, a few weeks ago, I couldn't remember if the moon went round the earth or round the sun, so he was facing an uphill, and probably futile, struggle.)

Doesn't everything need someone to make it?

Nope, some things evolve. Methycillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus has evolved from its non-resistant cousins. No-one made it, although I suppose you could argue that someone had a hand in its evolution when they developed the AB that worked on SA. But to "make" something in that context implies a deliberate act, unlike say, making a mess in your pants.

Mrs9C · 29/06/2019 13:26

Now OP's neighbour nuttiness is nuts, and people with beliefs can be nuts, especially when they ADD stuff to it unless it's biblical ie. moon landings, there is no reason from them to biblically believe that. Same goes with things like faith healings, talking in tongues, and general modern day nuttiness. I do not believe there is any biblical backing for those things, and I know some will disagree. But we're not all crazed loons Grin

Mrs9C · 29/06/2019 13:30

*Doesn't everything need someone to make it?

Nope, some things evolve. Methycillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus has evolved from its non-resistant cousins. No-one made it, although I suppose you could argue that someone had a hand in its evolution when they developed the AB that worked on SA. But to "make" something in that context implies a deliberate act, unlike say, making a mess in your pants.*

Aaah interesting. So MRSA evolved from it's cousin, surely that's not evolution, that's natural selection - did you know Creationists actually came up with natural selection first? A staphylococcus aureus becoming a staphylococcus aureus is not evolution!

Mrs9C · 29/06/2019 13:33

@LakieLady I appreciate your reply. Although none of your answers give me any persuasion of your argument. Example from your replies:

"Beauty is a human construct. It's not an actual thing. A slug or a giraffe has no concept of beauty. And it varies between cultures, and according to the fashion of the day within cultures."

I wasn't of course referring to human beauty, but the beauty of pattern, beauty of a shell, or the Amazon rainforest animals with their colours. Beauty of a sunset, or sunrise, beauty of the the northern lights. Beauty of nature. Surely that is accepted as an "actual thing"?

Lifecraft · 29/06/2019 13:33

What I'd like to ask anyone who doesn't believe in Creation is-
How can something come from nothing? What, like god?
Where did that something come from? Where did god come from?
How can complex physiology come by chance? It's not by chance. You don't understand evolution. It's a natural process. It is effected by chance events but it's not chance.
How does it make sense that your bodily systems work together so well? Because that's how evolution works. Things adapt to fit in with what's around them.
Where are all the 'in-between' beings from evolution? This is a myth. Everything is an inbetween thing. Evolution is always happening.
How can beauty come from mess? Stupid question. Beauty is purely subjective. Everything is flawed. Humans have loads of faults, as do all creatures.
How is there order in the world? There isn't. We are just in a lull between outbreaks of chaos, that have struck the world since it formed.
How even does everything work? Because it's evolved to work. If it didn't work, it wouldn't have survived to pass on its genes.
Doesn't everything need someone to make it? And we're back to who made god? Suggest you read a book called The Blind Watchmaker
The second law of thermodynamics shows that everything is in a worse state than it's first state, how does this apply to everything become better and more complex than it's initial state at the assumed beginning of time? You misunderstand the application of this law and the process of evolution.

Another book you should read, The Greatest Show On Earth. It's the definitive work on biological evolution. Then you'll actually understand what you are arguing against.

Mrs9C · 29/06/2019 13:36

Answering questions with questions isn't really answering any of my questions Hmm

Mrs9C · 29/06/2019 13:38

I believe I have already answered all your questions in my explanation a couple of messages up, happy to follow up should you can any constructive questions Smile

BertrandRussell · 29/06/2019 13:38

I don’t think you’re a crazed loon. I do think, however, that you are fundamentally wrong, that you

Lifecraft · 29/06/2019 13:43

I wasn't of course referring to human beauty, but the beauty of pattern, beauty of a shell, or the Amazon rainforest animals with their colours. Beauty of a sunset, or sunrise, beauty of the northern lights.Beauty of nature. Surely that is accepted as an "actual thing"

These things are only beautiful because you have evolved to fit in to the world that contains them. Your eyes have evolved to pick up the colours that are around you. Your lungs have evolved to breath oxygen. But oxygen isn't beautiful, it's actually a very volatile and explosive gas. You think breathing in fresh air in the Alps is beautiful, but it would instantly kill something that hadn't evolved to breath it. They wouldn't think it's beautiful.

On Venus it rains sulphuric acid. Sounds like hell to me. But if life had evolved on Venus, it would have evolved to live off sulphuric acid.

Mrs9C · 29/06/2019 13:47

@lifecraft that'll be why we don't live in the Alps then Grin or Venus Grin or anything else on Venus, come to think of it. Planet Earth is the only one the exact distance from the sun to be able to sustain life. Look at the eye, how it works with the brain, go study it, you may find you don't get far as even those who study the eye in depth have not been able to understand it's workings or explain a lot about the eye. For me, and many Creationists, design is the underlying and over-riding factor of why we believe there had to be intelligent design behind it all, otherwise it makes no sense, or an empty basis of assumption.

Mrs9C · 29/06/2019 13:49

@berrandrussell, that is fair enough, you are perfectly entitled to believe I/we who believe such fundamentally wrong, we are all given the free will to make our own belief, and stand by it Smile If I am wrong, then I have nothing to lose, but if I am right, everything to gain.

BertrandRussell · 29/06/2019 13:51

It’s all God of the Gaps stuff.

BertrandRussell · 29/06/2019 13:56

And when fundamentalists say “go study X” and then you’ll understand, thry don’t actually mean study the facts. They mean study Answers in Genesis, or any one of the many christian websites and you tube channels that perpetuate the misunderstanding that underpins YEC.

Mrs9C · 29/06/2019 13:57

Not at all. Creationists and evolutionists come to scientific evidence from completely different starting points. So it is no surprise we often interpret the evidence in completely different ways. But one thing we can agree on is that we don’t have all the answers. Being a creationist doesn’t mean we just say “God did it” and move on.

SinkGirl · 29/06/2019 14:00

I used to share a flat with a gay, tory, creationist science teacher...

I was very confused

SinkGirl · 29/06/2019 14:01

He introduced me to a scientist who used to work in pharmaceuticals and then left to work for a charity who focus on the scientific basis of creationism. Yes really.

FenellaMaxwell · 29/06/2019 14:03

The evidence of in-between things are freely available - looking at humans, for example, there’s a very extensive catalogue of remains of the “in-between things” en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils

BlamesFartsOnTheNeighbour · 29/06/2019 14:07

hence he lived until 900 years, there was not the existence of disease.

if they were so perfect, why did they die at 900? why not live forever?

Nousernameforme · 29/06/2019 14:08

Has anyone asked the question about the jewel wasp yet?
You know why did god create a creature that to reproduce must lay an egg inside another and it's offspring eats it's way out.

Was s/he/it having a bad day? Or just a really evil twisted being to come up with that idea.

On a similar note I found flat earth leaflets in the library the other day. It's a scary new world

BlamesFartsOnTheNeighbour · 29/06/2019 14:08

that'll be why we don't live in the Alps

Um, have you heard of Switzerland?

Icantreachthepretzels · 29/06/2019 14:15

What I'd like to ask anyone who doesn't believe in Creation is-
How can something come from nothing?

Agreed - it's quite hard to wrap our heads around. But then where does God come from? If God just 'is' - he is eternal and his presence (from nothing) requires no other explanation - why are you demanding an explanation for the creation of the super dense molecule? Why couldn't that just 'be'? 'God' does not answer this question - it just creates more questions. And if you can believe in the massive complexity of an all knowing deity just existing, then you have a bit of a cheek suggesting that atheists are the unreasonable for ones for accepting that one tiny molecule got more and more dense until it exploded.

Where did that something come from?

Where did God come from? if he just 'is' then you cannot ask other people to explain where everything else came from - that's hypocritical. You can believe that something massively complex can just exist but we can't believe that complex things can develop on their own? Even though - unlike you - we have proof and are still trying to work out the answers to bits we don't understand?

How can complex physiology come by chance?

It didn't. You have failed to understand evolution. Random changes happen by chance. Some of those changes are beneficial - and the organisms with that characteristic survive and reproduce and pass it on. Some of these random changes are not beneficial - and those that have it die out. Over millions of years these random changes (genetic mutations - and you can't deny genetic mutations can just happen - we see them all over. Cancer is a form of genetic mutation) get passed on, more genetic changes happen and eventually you get organisms we recognise today. It's still ongoing - but it takes millions of years, so you don't ever see it in real time. There is ample evidence in the fossil record.

How does it make sense that your bodily systems work together so well?

That would be evolution. However our systems are not as perfect as all that. The eye (so beloved as 'proof' in creationism) is actually a pretty inefficient design. We have left over bits we don't need and - let's be honest - having a pelvis that allows us to walk upright has made birth difficult and dangerous for all human women. This all makes sense if we have evolved from random changes (the changes aren't sentient - they aren't actually trying to design anything good) and we have just settled into a best fit for now. It makes a lot less sense if an intelligent creator chose to design us all so badly.

Where are all the 'in-between' beings from evolution?

In the fossil record. They died out.

How can beauty come from mess?

What has this got to do with anything? Both 'Beauty' and 'mess' are relative, human terms. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We find things beautiful not because they are but because we think they are. We have an emotional reaction to it - and being social creatures we share ideas of what constitutes beauty and agree to it. But between individuals these ideas can differ - what is beauty and what is a mess can be different to different people - look at different interpretations of artwork . However in some species beauty is a part of their evolution e.g flowers being pretty to attract the insects to pollinate them. 'Beauty' can have an evolutionary purpose - it can evolve same as eyes and dorsal fins.

How is there order in the world?

In what sense? Evolution sees to biological systems. Some organisms have evolved to be symbiotic with others (back to flowers and insects) which creates a sort of order. But you only have to look at the state of the world: poverty, hunger, famines, droughts, wars - to see that there is no intrinsic order to the way we live - and that nature can act against us. If you mean things like gravity and the speed of light then your back to scientific explanations - for which there are proof. If you mean these things simply can't exist on their own - but require a more powerful intelligent creator to put them in place - with no explanation for how he can simply exist beyond 'he does' - then you are back to hypocrisy.

How even does everything work?

Read a science text book.

Doesn't everything need someone to make it?

By that argument, God also needs someone to make him. To claim that mountains require someone to put them there but that God can just exist is ... say it with me ... hypocrisy

The second law of thermodynamics shows that everything is in a worse state than it's first state, how does this apply to everything become better and more complex than it's initial state at the assumed beginning of time?

ah the second law of thermodynamics argument - proving you neither understand thermodynamics or evolution. Here are some links www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html for anyone who thinks this is a gotcha. It's not.
But - put briefly - entropy is not the same as disorder as we commonly use the word, so trying to conflate the two is unscientific.
life is not a closed system - therefore the law doesn't act upon it the way creationist think it should.
evolution does not disprove the second law of thermodynamics or vice versa. They can both exist side by side quite nicely because they're not linked - and were never supposed to be.

LakieLady · 29/06/2019 14:29

I wasn't of course referring to human beauty, but the beauty of pattern, beauty of a shell, or the Amazon rainforest animals with their colours. Beauty of a sunset, or sunrise, beauty of the the northern lights. Beauty of nature. Surely that is accepted as an "actual thing"?

Who (or what) is the arbiter of this beauty? There is no absolute, gold-standard test for beauty. Some sunsets and sunrises are beautiful, some are pretty mediocre. Not all nature is beautiful, some of it is hideous, and cruel.

It's in the mind of the person perceiving it.

Icantreachthepretzels · 29/06/2019 14:43

Imagine you'd grown up on a planet without sunsets - where it was just light all the time and never dark. And then you landed on earth - and watched the sky turn a bright, fiery red/orange and the sun fall from the sky and utter blackness envelop the land. Would the sunset be beautiful then? Would the night sky? I imagine it would be pretty terrifying tbh.

We see things as beautiful because they are familiar, because they make sense to the way we see the world, because they are what we are used to. It is why different cultures have completely different beauty standards - and why those standards change over time.

The idea that some things just are objectively beautiful, not only to all people but also to all animals and any other life form that comes across it (which is the logical end point of Beauty of nature. Surely that is accepted as an "actual thing") just shows a massive lack of imagination and any true understanding of the world.

Everything comes with a context personal to the individual experiencing it - there is no such thing as objective beauty.

SinkGirl · 29/06/2019 14:43

The second law of thermodynamics shows that everything is in a worse state than it's first state, how does this apply to everything become better and more complex than it's initial state at the assumed beginning of time?

So you conveniently miss the “in a closed system” part, like all Creationists who think they know more about science than actual scientists. Do you genuinely believe all of science is a conspiracy?