AIBU about school imposing new sanctions?

[BumbleBeef30]

Today DC came home and said they had assemblies today in which they were told about new sanctions for issues such as having your shirt untucked or missing equipment, e.g. a purple pen.

I don’t mind it when a school has a sudden outbreak of enforcing uniform issues or ensuring all children have the right equipment using the original sanctions because, no matter how silly I may think it is to give a child a detention at break for a missing pen, those are the rules which were on the home-school agreement and I signed up to it.

I didn’t sign up to these new sanctions, which seem overly harsh and likely to punish only those children whose parents can not afford to replace items which break or go missing unexpectedly.

An occurrence of missing a pen now gets you sent to detention for three lessons; two occurrences get you isolation for three lessons; three occurrences get you sent to isolation for a whole day; and four occurrences earn you a fixed term exclusion. Theoretically a child could go to school on Monday without a pen and be excluded by Wednesday.

Before anyone says, I know pens are cheap and fairly easy to replace, but some people are forced to live hand to mouth at the moment, and the same new sanctions apply if you don’t have exactly the right type of shoes. Whereas before it might be a phone call to parents reminding them that shoes need to be lace-up, now it’s an immediate detention followed by isolation.

What’s more is that the school hasn’t sent home any information to parents, apart from an email containing the letter they give all new Year 7s about the standards they expect. No mention of sanctions at all - just a basic “we want every child to succeed and because of this we expect skirts to be knee length, all students to have the correct equipment, etc”.

AIBU to wonder what the fuck is going on at that school? Can schools just change sanctions whenever they feel like it? And should they be introducing these new, much harsher sanctions without letting parents know about them?

But they aren’t adorned with the school logo on every item of clothing, my daughters skirt isn’t knee length and her shoes aren’t laced, my son wears a non logo kit for PE and they have blue and black pens for writing. All of which would “earn” them isolation in some schools and none of which make a blind bit of difference to their capacity for learning.

I don’t understand whether your children are asked to do these things or not from this.

LolaSmiles, as far as I know university library corrals don’t punish you for leaning back in your chair.
If your actions are preventing others from studying you get asked to leave.

And if you're doing independent study in isolation then what possible need is there to lean back in your chair to have a look at what other students are doing/make contact?

My teaching skills tests were in a test centre that had dividers between the candidates.
My driving theory test centre had the same dividers between candidates.
In exams students have to face the front in silence and not try to communicate with other students.
Ks3 end of year exams, the classroom is in rows and they work in silence. Depending on the timetable, a student could have multiple exams on one day as part of normal lessons.

I think the new policy in your school sounds poorly thought through and badly executed, but the idea that working in silence for 5 lessons without disrupting others is some sort of terrible thing is ridiculous and shows what low expectations some adults have of teenagers.

That doesn’t make sense. The rules apply except when I decide they don’t? Right.

The rules:-
Arriving on time, attending school, having the right equipment, behaving respectfully in class etc etc

I expect my child to comply with reasonable class room sanctions, I have a very good relationship with the class teachers and the headteacher and they know I support school discipline.

Inappropriate punishment
Isolating my child for not having a purple pen, if the school had plans to introduce a policy of isolation I would oppose it and they wouldn’t have my permission to isolate my children. They can use other discipline methods which are equally effective and I’ll support these at home, but not isolation in school.

replace items which break or go missing unexpectedly.

I have literally never in my life had a pen mysteriously break when I was using it. They break because they are being chewed or dismantled - both of which are choices made by students. Similarly, they don't "go missing", and students are generally perfectly capable of keeping track of their phones so in the vast majority of cases it is simply that they don't care enough to bring a pen to lessons.

That said, the sanctions do seem overly harsh and I'd check with the school that DC haven't misunderstood before getting properly annoyed. And if my DC had SEN I'd query what reasonable adjustments were being made for them.

I think the new policy in your school sounds poorly thought through and badly executed, but the idea that working in silence for 5 lessons without disrupting others is some sort of terrible thing is ridiculous and shows what low expectations some adults have of teenagers.

I’d love to know how many adults here spend their working day in complete silence.

And you know capacity develops so what’s reasonable for someone at 16/17 isn’t necessarily for a 12/13 year old. And you know that primary school also use isolation for children as young as 5.

jellycatspyjamas

Which is what I said. You think you get to choose the rules.

The problem is - and I think you are failing to appreciate how damaging this is - every idiot parent who thinks they get to choose the rules and wastes the school’s time arguing about whether or not they give their “permission” for a sanction to happen undermines the whole system. YOU (and others like you) are the reason teachers are leaving. They simply cannot deal with the constant barrage of moaning and undermining of their ability to teach.

To be clear, I personally think purple pens are silly. However, I don’t think I get to make the rules and would just make sure my kid had one.

Why do they need specifically a purple pen...??

Right now it feels like the HT is trying to stop the ship sinking by ensuring the crew wear matching bandanas rather than they all have buckets to bail.

This, exactly this. We had precisely the same issue in my son's school, with a frankly inadequate head with no leadership skills. Teachers left in droves, but all the children had the right shoes...
It's often indicative of a lack of ideas, drive and imagination to actually improve education. Homework wasn't being marked, there was no effort to teach children critical thinking, planning their work or how to write an essay. But I thought I was just a parent and didn't really know enough about it to challenge the school.

To my shame I believed that it would all be okay as we live in a naice area with engaged parents, and I trusted the school. In the end the results were dire and the HT was eased out. But not before damage was done to a whole generation of children's education.

Unfortunately some inadequate HTs have read about how a pioneering head has gone to a failing school in a deprived area and turned things around by bringing pride back by restoring discipline and making uniform matter. They think that's all there is to it. They don't realise this person has also inspired the leadership team, brought in best practice, highlighted the love of education for itself.

Even we didn't have ridiculous pen detentions. Punishment doesn't always work. It make help generally organised people remember. But someone with an undiagnosed SEN, or who has executive function issues beneath the threshold of a diagnosis is going to really struggle. Surely they should be helped with organising themselves not punished.

And what about the children who come from chaotic families. Should they be punished twice over.

OP I'd really be worried about this. Combined with teachers leaving I think it sounds like a very poor SLT.

*may help

but not isolation in school

Isolation (everywhere I've worked) is used as an alternative to exclusion. Where NT students are disrupting the learning of others they should not be in classrooms. So the options to deal with that are isolation (with work set and staff on hand to make sure they do it) or exclusion (where parents may have to work and therefore not be around to ensure the work is done).

I've never known it applied for simply not having a pen. I have heard of it being applied for not having a pen, arguing with the teacher about pens not being important, then refusing to get on with work, more arguing with the teacher, then getting sent out of the lesson because the student has now spent 15 minutes of everyone's lesson time, then repeating the process 3 times in one day.

I don’t understand sticking a child in isolation for forgetting a pen? How big is the school’s isolation room? At my school it was a cell 6ftx6ft. I just have mental images of 200 children trying to pile in a tiny room! Why is detention in lesson time? Or do you mean the equivalent to 3 lessons time but carried out at break time?

Surely isolation is very counterproductive, those children will be missing out on teaching time, which come exam time will really matter. School will end up with crap exam results and no one will want to send their kids there. All for not having a pen! I don’t think they’ve thought this one through.

Homework wasn't being marked, there was no effort to teach children critical thinking, planning their work or how to write an essay. But I thought I was just a parent and didn't really know enough about it to challenge the school.

And the thing is, you were probably right. People go on about the importance of teaching “critical thinking” like there is some sort of agreed definition about what that is, and like it comes before reading, writing and arithmetic.

Homework doesn’t always need to be marked.

Etc.

I am not saying you might not have been more qualified to tell the school how to teach than the HT, but unless you have been a senior leader in a secondary school, it’s pretty unlikely.

The problem is that everyone thinks they are an expert these days.

It’s really odd how whole nations manage to educate their children without resorting to high levels of exclusion or isolation given it seems to be utterly impossible to manage children’s behaviour in Mumsnet land without it.

every idiot parent

I’m far from an idiot, thanks.

Surely isolation is very counterproductive, those children will be missing out on teaching time, which come exam time will really matter. School will end up with crap exam results and no one will want to send their kids there. All for not having a pen! I don’t think they’ve thought this one through.

It’s only going to be counterproductive if the child doesn’t give themselves a kick up the arse and start bringing a pen. And frankly, the children who don’t give themselves that kick are doing more damage to the education of their peers than they are benefiting themselves by being in the classroom. Why should they get to spend five years robbing everyone else blind?

Yet another example of schools punishing children for their parents failings.

I agree. Many parents just don't care. If their child said 'Mum I need a purple pen for school' they'd rummage in their handbag, produce a black/blue pen and say that'll have to do. No amount of protests from their children would persuade them to make a trip to the shops to specifically get them the right pen. There are children all over the country going into school not having had breakfast or not having a decent packed lunch - sometimes this is due to financial problems but often it's because parents don't give a fuck, if they don't give a fuck about the basis why do people think they'll give a fuck over the correct pen???

I suspect teachers defending these ridiculous rules place very little value on education but are rather fixated on power relationships in the classroom. All under the banner of 'following the rules' and just doing their job I can't think of any other profession that blames their regulator for their failings.

I wonder why we have children leaving school with limited potential - perhaps because draconian rules have disengaged a generation of children from their education. People like this head and other professional bullies have turned a 'gift' of education into something horrid - isolation is a sad indictment of a profession who has failed to work with parents and student to instil respect and behaviour . I've seen teachers like this who think they're great but no-ones listening. This generation of power obsessed uniform and pen pedants have fucked a generation of children.

I can't think of any other profession who are institutionally incapable yet hang themselves on a cross of martyrdom made of their own incompetence.

My DDs school is stepping up sanctions like this with zero tolerance towards very minor issues.

However my DD is being persistently bullied by the same group of kids and it is totally ignored by staff too busy fighting the war of the untucked shirt

jellycatspyjamas
Different cultures and different attitudes makes a massive difference. The UK has a sizable minority of parents with school sized chips on their shoulders and actively undermine anything a school does or they decide their child is exempt from any rule they don't like and then complain and cry human rights if anyone dares pull their child up on it. It's an attitude that is on the rise and I wonder how much goes hand in hand with some parents wanting to be their child's mate rather than parent.

I did a brief time teaching overseas and didn't see that at all, though the nature of the school probably helped. There was no uniform, a dress code (staff and students and the staff one allowed us dress casually), everyone was on first name terms and it was excellent. Do I think some schools in the UK could run like that? Probably. Do I think it would work as the norm? Not a chance.

I did a brief time teaching overseas and didn't see that at all, though the nature of the school probably helped. There was no uniform, a dress code (staff and students and the staff one allowed us dress casually), everyone was on first name terms and it was excellent. Do I think some schools in the UK could run like that? Probably. Do I think it would work as the norm? Not a chance.

And that’s the reality. The rules are in place for the simple reason that there is a culture in this country of anti-authoritarian, anti-intellectual behaviour, disguised as “mutual respect”. There is nothing respectful about turning up to learn without a pen. There is nothing respectful about arguing when reminded you should have a pen. There is nothing respectful about getting your phone out to call your mum in class to tell her the teacher dared to tell you off for not having a pen.

Thank God my son is at a special school where they don’t have this kind of rubbish.

Yes I get that rules have to be followed but this is not the bloody army. Every child should have a pen and pencil plus additional stuff needed (basics) to learn. All this purple one bollocks is just ridiculous.

My son would never have coped with this stuff as even now he loses items. He would not have coped in isolation booths either.

Funnily enough the pupil referral units (or Community Student Support I believe they are now called) are getting more and more pupils with SEN because the schools “cannot cope” . Which I think means “these kids can’t cope with our stupid rules so we don’t want them in our school”.

These kids don’t have behaviour issues....until schools start trying to sanction them for issues caused by their disability. Discrimination at its finest.

Give it 20 years and I suspect there will be a whole raft of legal challenges and claims for people denied an education because the system didn’t make reasonable adjustments.

DuckWillow

Most schools will make reasonable adjustments with a diagnosis in place.

I didn’t sign up to these new sanctions

I didn't sign up to many rules in society is it okay for me to break them?

Herculepoirot2 I didn't say critical thinking was more important than reading, writing and arithmetic. However, I would think that it's important to teach children how to write an essay, how to analyse an exam question and how to present an argument. I would hope by secondary school they'd know how to read, unless they have particular special educational needs, such as dyslexia.

I didn't say that all homework needed to be marked but to have only one piece marked over six months, as happened with my son's English work, meant that he had no feedback on areas to improve. You might think that's fine. I think it's shit.

Anyway by picking on a couple of points, you are missing the overall thrust of my argument, which is clearly that failing heads and failing schools can tend to focus on the things that are easy to control, while missing out on the things that really matter.

But then I think you know that but just don't like the message.

I’m in a part of the UK that doesn’t use isolation - i recognise the education “chip on the shoulder” you speak of but schools in the main here do manage classroom discipline and do manage to educate children well. I do think part of it is having every aspect of a child’s education less tightly managed eg uniform is expected in schools but there’s variation in what that might look like for each child. I also think good relationships with home and school help, I’m on first name terms with my DCs class teachers and senior leadership team, if issues arise we talk about them and my kids know I’m in touch with their teachers and that we work as a team.

I can’t see how ever tightening the reins and imposing more and more sanctions in any way teaches children responsibility or self regulation. It teaches crime and punishment, and to not ever question the rules, and to do what you’re told regardless of how ridiculous - and that if you don’t obey, you’ll be kicked out.

Such a sound base for our young adults.

Overmaars

Not at all. I understand the message. It’s true - some HTs aren’t great and most aren’t visionary leaders. But that doesn’t mean the 2,000 or so parents of the children they educate should be telling them how to do their jobs. That would make it a lot harder to focus on the things that matter, wouldn’t it?