To ask why two London boroughs send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined?

[nickymanchester]

I was reading an article in The Guardian today which claimed that more children from the London boroughs of Richmond and Barnet go to Oxbridge than all of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined.

For context, the population of Richmond and Barnet combined is about 540k (Barnet actually has quite a lot of people living there) according to the ONS - so about the same population as Sheffield.

David Lammy says England is failing those who don't go to university

This is the quote:-

He noted that university access data reveals that geography is as much of a fault line as class or race. “Two London boroughs, Richmond and Barnet, send more kids to Oxbridge than the entirety of Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester combined,” he said.

So, is it just down to all the private schools in London? Or is there something else affecting these figures as well?

Maybe because Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester have their own v good uni's tvm and none of the elitism attitude to "northerners"

Do you think people really don't know Oxbridge has a tutorial system? I think a lot of people do know.

Well, a lot of people seem to think that Oxbridge is stuffed full of posh twats who will look down their noses at you, that you’ll be discriminated against if you have a Northern accent and that they will be expensive places to live so yes, I can easily believe that people don’t really understand how the teaching style differs. Of course some will thrive better in one context than another but it stands to reason that smaller groups mean better access to individual support where needed.

Zipee I know, my DH studied it. That is why I didn’t say “all of the courses you mention”.

RB68 what is your evidence for this supposed “elitism attitude to Northerners”?

Ok, I will rephrase that. No, ignorance about the tutorial system is not the only reason (other than a chip on the shoulder) that people don't believe Oxbridge is universally superior.

I wish it were true that smaller groups meant better access to individual support, but they don't always. You can perfectly well feel there's a lack of support from your peers, and some people really need and value this (I'm talking academically, not socially).

Grace
www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/economics

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/management-studies

www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses-listing/economics-and-management?wssl=1

Yes Grace some believe that, and some have direct experience of it. But I really doubt that are many people who seriously consider Oxbridge who dont know about the tutorial system. I'm pretty sure they can read and use the internet for a start

but a claim can't be made that the two students mentioned "should" have got in when it is such a competitive process irrespective of background.

You are missing the point. Your contention was that they might have interviewed less well "for whatever reason". My claim is that the reason could be that despite being clever enough, they were not well versed in the Oxbridge interview process. If every university interviewed every student, you might have a point, but they don't. Privilege and advantage are alive and well.

My DH also went (not at the same time as me) from a similar social background in the South West and also had a fabulous time. We live just outside Barnet now grin. Our son will see from us that normal people go and will not discount it as an option when the time comes. (Obviously we’ll disown him if he wants to apply to Loughborough) wink

Are you still normal people though, Grace? You are now 2 Oxbridge graduates working in London in the sort of jobs the Oxbridge graduates do, living in an affuent part of north London near Barnet. You have become the very demographic that David Lammy was describing; in fact, you may be the answer to the original question. Of course your son wouldn't think twice about applying!

Some have direct experience of what, BarbarianMum? Not higher living costs because that simply isn’t true. And I don’t know a single person who felt socially excluded or looked down upon by those from more privileged backgrounds, or whose accent held them back. If this did happen, it was probably 50 years ago so not relevant any more.

Im Mancunian- my school heavily encouraged me to apply to oxbridge as an A* student and I was really keen.

When I visited I really got the feeling that it wasn’t for the likes of me. The cost of accommodation in the colleges was more than my entire maintenance loan and my parents couldn’t afford to make up the shortfall. I did well at school but also was quite quirky, bold and liked partying. I did not feel I fit in at all. I felt the same when I visited St Andrews- they are like pretend little fantasy worlds for people who have never seen adversity.

I went to Manchester University in the end but lived in halls and with friends and had the time of my life. I have a professional job now and have no regrets. A friend who went to Oxford ended up working in a shop afterwards- he struggled to make friends as he was very left wing and outspoken about it. I did think he would have been really popular at other universities. He does his PHD at a northern university now.

How do we know they were 'clever enough'? And do you think 'clever' is all it's about?

Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester have brilliant universities in their own cities. And in the North East. oxford and Cambridge are competing with Durham, Edinburgh and St Andrews. It has been known for people to get into Oxbridge and turn places down in favour of other unis. They are not everyone's first choice.

I don’t know a single person who felt socially excluded or looked down upon by those from more privileged backgrounds

Are you seriously suggesting that because you personally have no experience of this that it does not happen. You do understand that you have not met and spoken to everyone who has attended Oxbridge don't you?

CecilyP yes, of course we are normal, in the sense that we don’t think that people from different backgrounds deserve our contempt, or are so different from us that we’d exclude them socially, and we still have our accents. Perhaps I should have said “nice people” not “normal people”.

Rather timely to this topic, I have just been looking at the destinations of leavers from my local (southern) sixth form and last year none of them went to a university north of Manchester.

So are Durham and Newcastle biased against southerners? Probably not... But anecdotally it does suggest that geography does play a role in university destination. Again, anecdotally, from my year at my northern sixth form, several people didn't leave the city (it had a good local uni) and a lot stayed within the north. Those of us who went south to any university were rare.

And Oxford really isn't as full of privileged toffs as people like to think (anecdotally I know a lot of state educated northerners who studied there), just they get a lot more attention from the media and on forums. Yes, there is an imbalance in that the proportion of private school educated (which is a broad spectrum of schools in itself including northern private schools) pupils compared to the general population but that does not mean everyone is wandering around like they walked out of Brideshead revisited. There is a higher international contingent due to the graduate student body makeup - there is also a growing international makeup to the teaching staff plus British tutors who aren't southern, private school educated so no not everyone is biased against a non RP accent. To be honest the most prominent group of people you see around the town and colleges are the damn tourists blocking all the pavements - you have to look a lot harder to spot the few Bullingdon club members.

HeadsDown nobody has. So why would anyone decide not to apply on the basis of an assumption that they will be socially excluded? At least from my POV I have direct experience of that not being the case, so could reassure someone who was worried that it might be unavoidable.

Well, I have anecdata (and out of data anecdata at that) about feeling excluded. When I was a student, to my absolute amazement, I was told by some posh boys that I was 'northern' (I'm from the East Mids) and it was assumed my mate from Middlesborough and I must be from roughly the same bit of the country. They also guffawed loudly when I admitted I was studying an essay subject and was dyslexic.

If I hadn't been 18, I would have realised that this was because they were giant tossers. And if I hadn't been 18, I would have realised that quite a lot of 18 year olds can be giant tossers, because it's an age where we don't have much life experience.

This is the issue with privilege in general. You can try as hard as you like to design a fair system, to make sure you train your admissions interviewers in tacit bias, to make sure you employ people who are passionate about levelling the playing field. And you still cannot legislate for the fact that a chance encounter with someone who makes an unpleasant comment can be all it takes to really put someone deserving off the whole idea of applying.

So why would anyone decide not to apply on the basis of an assumption that they will be socially excluded?

Probably because several other people have had the exact opposite experience to you and felt they did not fit in because of where they were from or what school they attended. Like it or not the fear of being the odd one out could be very isolating and off putting to many who would consider it an option.

@JasperRising

I wouldn’t suggest that everyone is a bullingdon member - but that’s the extreme end. I found that a lot of people whilst superficially normal seeming think poor people deserve to be poor and should just eat less McDonalds.

Yes, I'm sure your really quite normal, Grace, but perhaps you are no longer what might be described as ordinary people. You have been very successful in life. Perhap, as sucessful people gravitate away from the north and regions towards London and the south east, it is more of their offspring that will apply to Oxbridge

I also think travel to university has a lot to do with it. Obviously there are exceptions but a lot of young people seem to want to leave home but not to go to far from home. It is also quite unusual for students to just go home during the holidays. Most will make several trips a year to visit home.

I live in one of the boroughs mentioned. Everyone is OBSESSED by secondary places, schools, ofsted, homework, tutoring. There’s also serious money about (sadly not me ) which I think is a contributing factor.

I do know black students who have chosen not to apply to Oxbridge because they are uncomfortable being in such a minority having come from very multicultural London schools.

Although I also know lots of London children who wouldn't dream of applying to anywhere other than another big city uni because Durham, Oxbridge, St Andrews etc don't feel big enough.

The Oxbridge terms are very short and intense (8 weeks). It’s very unusual for students to go home during term Cecily, even those who live nearby.

Perhaps some people would not like that, in which case Oxbridge is not for them.

How do we know they were 'clever enough'?
We don't - but they had equally good A level results

And do you think 'clever' is all it's about?
It's a start when pursuing a further academic qualification, but of course Oxbridge sets unique (and in some cases discriminatory) admissions criteria as well.

If you read the Sutton Trust research from 2108 and subsequent press coverage, both universities said they accept they need to do more.